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 BIRDS FOR A PARTICULAR DISTANCE

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blueskylofts
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PostSubject: BIRDS FOR A PARTICULAR DISTANCE   Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:25 am

I am trying to do some research into whether certain birds, types of birds, families of birds, are better at certain distances. For instance, are the Janssen strain better at distances up to 230 miles or 400 miles, or Vandenabeeles from 300 up to 700 miles, or other families at other distances?

Or should we really be talking about FAMILIES of birds, that is, a group of pigeons that a particular fancier has taken years to develop, through strict selection?

I was talking the other day with a friend of mine who does very well with his own pigeons (and other fanciers also do very well with this guy’s pigeons). I asked what distance his birds were best at. He said ‘Well, they will win from 60 to 600 miles’. But to cut the rest of the conversation short, what he meant was that certain birds from his family do well at shorter distances, and some other birds from his same family do better at longer distances.

I guess it is just down to selection, selecting the type of birds from what you have, to suit the job you want them to do. I think this goes back to what Hal was saying about looking in the mirror, or did I misunderstand you Hal?

Phil
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PostSubject: Re: BIRDS FOR A PARTICULAR DISTANCE   Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:50 pm

Phil. I imported Barkers from the UK many years ago. Aardens also. Trying to improve long distance birds I had. Both strains were an absolute washout. So I purchased some birds from a fancier that won a lot of distance (500) races. He had imported birds from UK and European fanciers. They blended right in. Contrary to popular belief, they were on the medium to large size. The original Jannsens brothers pigeons were supposed to be sprinters. If memory serves me correctly, they did enter and win a long race. 400 miles I believe. Most fanciers will breed off their winners. If it happens to be a large pigeon then usually resulting offspring will be large. Ergo, same with smaller pigeons. Then the family inherits these traits. No matter what the distance. Most of the fanciers in this area are Belgian or Dutch. They like fast sprint pigeons. They fly to 300 miles. There is one fancier this year flew a tough 500 miler. He had the only two day birds and 6 in the top 8. 2 day race. The bloodlines are Marcel Aalbrecht, Belgium, and Ko Van Dommelen, Holland. European champions at the distance. De Rauw and Sablon also in the mix. Des Mathys x Jannsen cock won me a 600 miler years back. Van Loon hen won me $1000 fast race from 280 miles. Then won me a 400 miler same year. The mealy hen in my avatar won me two long distance races same year. Jannsen basically. All nest fliers. From what I have determined over the years is this. The size of the bird is of little importance. The strain of the bird is also of little importance. If I wanted to win Sprint races I would buy birds from a Sprint champion. i.e. Roland Jannsens Sprint pigeons for Sprint races etc,. Same with long distance birds. However, as long distance races are apparently being phased out world wide, the ideal bird would be a middle distance bird that can compete at both ends of the spectrum. Personally, I believe I have that type. Just a question of weaning out the less than superior ones. But again, I have had dummies get in form and motivated and win for me. It is after all up to the fancier to get the most out of the birds. Point system here is this.
1st (back to the loft) 1 point. 3 times first 3 points. 5th back to the loft 3 times 15 points. And so on. The ones I breed off are the ones with the lowest points. (Plus tryouts). Have to limit yb's to accommodation, so many this year will not be bred off. Pot eggs. There is no easy answer to winning races. Mirror. But again, JMO.
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PostSubject: Re: BIRDS FOR A PARTICULAR DISTANCE   Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:39 pm

Very nice answer Hal. Clear, concise and to the point.

The thing is, that a novice or even somebody who knows a little about racing pigeons can waste an awful lot of years going around the wrong bush, if you know what I mean. I think also there is no quick answer, you just have to get hold of the best birds that you think you can for the job you want them to do. Whether that is buying some birds from people like this disgusting creature I have mentioned that lives in Holland. or ask about and keep asking about and see if you can find something at a reasonable price.

Then, once you have those birds, breed as MANY as you can and test them all. I think Ad Schaerlaeckens has got a saying that goes something like 'Test all the birds you have fully, get rid of the rubbish, sell the OK ones, and breed from the very best'. For me, I think that just about says it all.

One thing is for sure, there are no shortcuts. If you think you are going to produce a family of winners in 2 years, you have another think coming! I think you are probably looking at nearer 5 years.

Phil
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PostSubject: Re: BIRDS FOR A PARTICULAR DISTANCE   Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:19 pm

I am aware of many people who start with well pedigreed pigeons. Then wonder why they cannot compete at the top with the offspring. Always surprised me. Looked at a few of the pedigrees of the birds in question. Then it became clear! The grand parents, sometimes the great grandparents were the foundation. Excellent performers. But then some of the offspring were bred for stock. And so on. Sometimes 4 generations. Never tested, sold on the exploits of the originals. Many buy birds bred for stock. Good chance there is a super in there somewhere but not often. Mother Natures Law. Keep to the average, easier. Ad S is right. He has my respect.
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PostSubject: Re: BIRDS FOR A PARTICULAR DISTANCE   Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:33 pm

halcanada wrote:
I am aware of many people who start with well pedigreed pigeons. Then wonder why they cannot compete at the top with the offspring. Always surprised me. Looked at a few of the pedigrees of the birds in question. Then it became clear! The grand parents, sometimes the great grandparents were the foundation. Excellent performers. But then some of the offspring were bred for stock. And so on. Sometimes 4 generations. Never tested, sold on the exploits of the originals. Many buy birds bred for stock. Good chance there is a super in there somewhere but not often. Mother Natures Law. Keep to the average, easier. Ad S is right. He has my respect.  


Yes Hal - Ad has my greatest respect as well.

Phil
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PostSubject: Re: BIRDS FOR A PARTICULAR DISTANCE   Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:32 pm

blueskylofts wrote:
halcanada wrote:
I am aware of many people who start with well pedigreed pigeons. Then wonder why they cannot compete at the top with the offspring. Always surprised me. Looked at a few of the pedigrees of the birds in question. Then it became clear! The grand parents, sometimes the great grandparents were the foundation. Excellent performers. But then some of the offspring were bred for stock. And so on. Sometimes 4 generations. Never tested, sold on the exploits of the originals. Many buy birds bred for stock. Good chance there is a super in there somewhere but not often. Mother Natures Law. Keep to the average, easier. Ad S is right. He has my respect.  


Yes Hal - Ad has my greatest respect as well.

Phil
For me Phil Smile Smile one should first ask ones self if it's in you to take on long distance type racing etc. It's a cruel/brutel type of business Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes & I'm not talking about the pigeon side of things, but on ones body Wink Wink. Paper pedigrees Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes can mean much or very little I would suggest also bounce bounce as 500 miles in 6 hours, compared to 16 hours for the same journey is not quite the same from my perspective.  cheers
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PostSubject: Re: BIRDS FOR A PARTICULAR DISTANCE   Sat Sep 23, 2017 1:07 am

Yes Knackered. But with all the new E clock and trapping systems etc, one would think it was a no brainer. No one has to sit and wait any more.
As regards buying birds from top notch fanciers, one can buy the birds but not the flier. Every fancier has a different system. As always, if it works for you do not change. If your results are not what you expect explore other methods.
Pigeon racing always has been a "what if" sport. Always self guessing. Was the bird motivated enough? Was it in excellent health? Was the feed right? Etc, etc,. Brain works overtime. Sleepless nights. Magic pills and potions administered. And no performance as expected frustration sets in. "Will pull the heads off. Get better birds etc,." Then another round of change of birds, methods, feed, potions. If a person has a stroke, do you call it a nap or a temporary rejuvenation?
Most people, in my opinion, have the birds or some of them that can perform for them. Just a matter of observation all else being equal. More birds less observation per bird. Hence sometimes important markers get missed. Widowhood is much better for most. Double widowhood better. I have to assume so, have never done it. Nest flying, hen with chipping eggs., she has the milk in the crop which she can utilize if the race gets really tough. An advantage.
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PostSubject: Re: BIRDS FOR A PARTICULAR DISTANCE   Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:34 am

halcanada wrote:
Yes Knackered. But with all the new E clock and trapping systems etc, one would think it was a no brainer. No one has to sit and wait any more.
As regards buying birds from top notch fanciers, one can buy the birds but not the flier. Every fancier has a different system. As always, if it works for you do not change. If your results are not what you expect explore other methods.
Pigeon racing always has been a "what if" sport. Always self guessing. Was the bird motivated enough? Was it in excellent health? Was the feed right? Etc, etc,. Brain works overtime. Sleepless nights. Magic pills and potions administered. And no performance as expected frustration sets in. "Will pull the heads off. Get better birds etc,." Then another round of change of birds, methods, feed, potions. If a person has a stroke, do you call it a nap or a temporary rejuvenation?
Most people, in my opinion, have the birds or some of them that can perform for them. Just a matter of observation all else being equal. More birds less observation per bird. Hence sometimes important markers get missed. Widowhood is much better for most.  Double widowhood better. I have to assume so, have never done it. Nest flying, hen with chipping eggs., she has the milk in the crop which she can utilize if the race gets really tough. An advantage.
I know that Hal "re E-clocks" Wink Wink But I talk as a Dinosaur Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Ark type bloke etc lol! lol! lol!.  cheers
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PostSubject: Re: BIRDS FOR A PARTICULAR DISTANCE   Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:37 am

Knackered - can you explain what you mean by this:-

'It's a cruel/brutel type of business & I'm not talking about the pigeon side of things, but on ones body.

Paper pedigrees can mean much or very little I would suggest also as 500 miles in 6 hours, compared to 16 hours for the same journey is not quite the same from my perspective.'


What difference does a LONG distance race have on one's body.

If you have to pick the bird up to take a rubber off, then the distance the bird has flown has nothing to do with it - or am I missing something.

ALSO - I was really talking about Buying in birds that you think will do the job - Against Building a family that you think will do the job.

Phil
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PostSubject: Re: BIRDS FOR A PARTICULAR DISTANCE   Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:49 am

Phil. Quickest way is to buy them in. Then you have the basics.
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PostSubject: Re: BIRDS FOR A PARTICULAR DISTANCE   Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:26 am

blueskylofts wrote:
Knackered - can you explain what you mean by this:-

'It's a cruel/brutel type of business & I'm not talking about the pigeon side of things, but on ones body.

Paper pedigrees can mean much or very little I would suggest also as 500 miles in 6 hours, compared to 16 hours for the same journey is not quite the same from my perspective.'


What difference does a LONG distance race have on one's body.

If you have to pick the bird up to take a rubber off, then the distance the bird has flown has nothing to do with it - or am I missing something.

ALSO - I was really talking about Buying in birds that you think will do the job - Against Building a family that you think will do the job.

Phil
Phil Smile Smile I speak of the wear & tear on ones human body etc Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes. Sprint type races are over & done with in hours, on average. Distance type races Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes are some what differant I've found down here, especially if one wishes to see every bird that arrives home no-matter when. Start waiting Saturday night, see nothing Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes & then up before dawn the next day & then wait all day to see your team come home "hopefully" Smile Smile. Do that for near on 50 years lol! lol! lol! & you could finish up completely knackered, if you lucky bounce bounce & if not, there is a  special type place avalaible for pigeon tragics, if you get my drift  Wink  Wink. cheers
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PostSubject: Re: BIRDS FOR A PARTICULAR DISTANCE   Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:38 am

Knackered, thank you very much for the explanation. What you were meaning is all clear now.

With all the trust I can muster, I don't think I have another 50 years left - I am 63 now, and, if I get another 25 or 30 years I shall think myself extremely blessed.

Having said all that, I'd still like to win a long prestigious race, before I go to this special place you spoke about!

Phil
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PostSubject: Re: BIRDS FOR A PARTICULAR DISTANCE   Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:41 am

halcanada wrote:
Phil. Quickest way is to buy them in. Then you have the basics.



You might be right Hal, if you are talking about the quickest way, but it also might be the quickest way to buy yourself a load of rubbish!

I suppose ideally the best and quickest way is to go and find a friendly fancier who is winning at the type of distances that one is aiming at, and see if he will sell you a dozen or so birds.

Phil
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PostSubject: Re: BIRDS FOR A PARTICULAR DISTANCE   Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:17 am

blueskylofts wrote:
halcanada wrote:
Phil. Quickest way is to buy them in. Then you have the basics.



You might be right Hal, if you are talking about the quickest way, but it also might be the quickest way to buy yourself a load of rubbish!

I suppose ideally the best and quickest way is to go and find a friendly fancier who is winning at the type of distances that one is aiming at, and see if he will sell you a dozen or so birds.

Phil
One of the fortunate things that one can have in this sport Phil is friends. Example, talking to little fat bloke today here about a flyer who he has been friends with for many years & he has helped out with many top birds at the distance etc & he has decided to get out of the sport because of his age type of thing. He has a top 600 mile Fed bird in a hard 2 day race here, which one of the money men has offered him  $1000 for just recently. Now !!! would you like to have a guess, who missed out "Big time" lol! lol! lol! & who now has a big grin on his face, for just being a good friend as such.  cheers
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PostSubject: Re: BIRDS FOR A PARTICULAR DISTANCE   Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:26 am

I am not sure Knackered - but I will  have a guess at the little rotund gentleman - or was it you!!

Phil
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PostSubject: Re: BIRDS FOR A PARTICULAR DISTANCE   Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:55 am

blueskylofts wrote:
I am not sure Knackered - but I will  have a guess at the little rotund gentleman - or was it you!!

Phil
Not me sadly lol! lol! lol! But your correct Smile Smile it was the little rotund fella bounce bounce & seeing as he gifted him the parents of the 600 mile hen etc here is getting them back also as a freebee  Smile  Smile.
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PostSubject: Re: BIRDS FOR A PARTICULAR DISTANCE   Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:11 pm

There are some long distance fanciers who will sell you the good ones, or off the good ones. I know of none personally over there but have to assume other people do. Then depends if you intend to fly North to South or vice versa. Or across the Channel. Horses for courses.
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PostSubject: Re: BIRDS FOR A PARTICULAR DISTANCE   Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:08 am

I watched the Swindell part two video again. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nvUb9sRm7M few things stood out. If I was over there and wanting to compete, I would buy off him if I could afford it. I assume they will not be cheap. But as he says, Buy one or two and breed as many as you can from them using pumpers/feeders and fly them all. Buying cheaper birds for the same price, by the dozen for the same money gives you diluted genetics. Other thing of note that in one race over the Channel then the Irish sea, 23 made it in race time. Out of the 23 he had some and most of the others were either bred by him or out of his stock. That is a testimonial that is hard to beat. Of course, other fanciers flying different routes may not do as well with his birds.
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PostSubject: Re: BIRDS FOR A PARTICULAR DISTANCE   Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:24 am

halcanada wrote:
I watched the Swindell part two video again. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nvUb9sRm7M few things stood out. If I was over there and wanting to compete, I would buy off him if I could afford it. I assume they will not be cheap. But as he says, Buy one or two and breed as many as you can from them using pumpers/feeders and fly them all. Buying cheaper birds for the same price, by the dozen for the same money gives you diluted genetics. Other thing of note that in one race over the Channel then the Irish sea, 23 made it in race time. Out of the 23 he had some and most of the others were either bred by him or out of his stock. That is a testimonial that is hard to beat. Of course, other fanciers flying different routes may not do as well with his birds.


Hal - do you know where Part One is? If you look on the comments of part two, you will see I asked where part one is FIVE months ago - but no answer. Can you help.

Phil
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PostSubject: Re: BIRDS FOR A PARTICULAR DISTANCE   Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:51 pm

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PostSubject: Re: BIRDS FOR A PARTICULAR DISTANCE   Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:37 pm

halcanada wrote:
Here Phil.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFdV7KRt-7s



Thanks Hal - I did think that was the initial part.

I have tried to contact this guy a few times with no luck so far. I have a good pigeon friend who lives in Belfast and my son lives a bit further north but I can't seem to get any sort of contact details for him.

Phil
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PostSubject: Re: BIRDS FOR A PARTICULAR DISTANCE   Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:37 pm

ive read / heard that its how you feed a pigeon as to if it will fly the distance, for example the van reets are supposed to be sprint type birds, but ive heard some have flown the channel.......so I think its down to the individual pigeon and how it is fed / managed.
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PostSubject: Re: BIRDS FOR A PARTICULAR DISTANCE   Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:05 pm

David wrote:
ive read / heard that its how you feed a pigeon as to if it will fly the distance, for example the van reets are supposed to be sprint type birds, but ive heard some have flown the channel.......so I think its down to the individual pigeon and how it is fed / managed.

I will agree but what you have to consider David is you can have sprint pigeons for national racing if you live on the coast 200+ miles shorter than you
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PostSubject: Re: BIRDS FOR A PARTICULAR DISTANCE   Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:49 pm

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PostSubject: Re: BIRDS FOR A PARTICULAR DISTANCE   Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:11 am

Don Webb wrote:
David wrote:
ive read / heard that its how you feed a pigeon as to if it will fly the distance, for example the van reets are supposed to be sprint type birds, but ive heard some have flown the channel.......so I think its down to the individual pigeon and how it is fed / managed.

I will agree but what you have to consider David is you can have sprint pigeons for national racing if you live on the coast 200+ miles shorter than you

yes, that's a good point don...
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