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 YB Not Right....

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David
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PostSubject: YB Not Right....   Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:09 pm

had a yb come back probably 2 weeks ago from training, been out a couple of nights.........came back with wound across its chest, thing is its never looked right since coming home, droppings seem fine, bird doesn't look ill, but doesn't look right.

it looks a bit arched, its back......I thought because of hitting something, but also you can see it breathing, as though its struggling, maybe down to damage which I cant see inside the bird....???

any thoughts please.
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PostSubject: Re: YB Not Right....   Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:29 pm

check the keel bone david maybe he damaged an air sac or similar if its internal then it may take some time to heal but after 2 weeks I would of thought it would have improved by now
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PostSubject: Re: YB Not Right....   Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:04 pm

seems worse if I`m honest Darren....... Crying or Very sad

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PostSubject: Re: YB Not Right....   Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:07 pm

Dave you will no doubt be culling better pigeons at some time, there is no one that loves their pigeons more than I but????

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PostSubject: Re: YB Not Right....   Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:42 am

Nuke it.
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PostSubject: Re: YB Not Right....   Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:29 am

unfortunately david its not looking good have you had it confined to a nest box
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PostSubject: Re: YB Not Right....   Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:33 am

oldstrain wrote:
unfortunately david its not looking good have you had it confined to a nest box

no Darren, in with my other ybs, doesn't look ill, ie watery droppings, feathers blown etc....eating, and even went out yesterday with the others, although it did sit in the tree Embarassed Embarassed
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PostSubject: Re: YB Not Right....   Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:53 pm

yb still not looking right, looks to be some distress..........might have to take drastic action, although im very reluctant to do so Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad No
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PostSubject: Re: YB Not Right....   Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:23 am

David wrote:
yb still not looking right, looks to be some distress..........might have to take drastic action, although im very reluctant to do so Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad No
It's a cruel, cruel world at times David Wink Wink both for pigeons & humans etc Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes I would suggest. cheers
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PostSubject: Re: YB Not Right....   Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:45 am

Nuke it.
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PostSubject: Re: YB Not Right....   Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:51 am

David wrote:
yb still not looking right, looks to be some distress..........might have to take drastic action, although im very reluctant to do so Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad No

shame but probably kindest thing to do its probably damaged some air sacs without being able to see inside the bird its difficult to say ...sorry to hear david ,we nursed 2 back to full health but they were gone within 2 training tosses sometimes I think they are ruined mentally after such ordeals its not just overcoming the injuries No
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PostSubject: Re: YB Not Right....   Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:05 am

David,
Most normal people are sentimental and that includes the love of animals.

However, there are times when common sense should be involved.

If you actually seemingly make the pigeon well again, them what?.

It is hard enough, if that is your aim, to win races with pigeons with ideal health (although I doubt if there are any) so just what do you think you will do with this one?.

Regards.



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PostSubject: Re: YB Not Right....   Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:53 pm

The BIG FOUR - the following four diseases account for 95% of the poor performance in racing lofts that is related to health. Ornithose complex: This is probably the most common cause of poor performance related to health. I am not talking about overt respiratory disease where the pigeons are coughing, sneezing, blowing snot on the walls, etc, but SUBCLINICAL DESEASE. Remember, that a birds respiratory system is integrated into it's entire body. ANY LEVEL OF INFECTION WILL GREATLY HAMPER PERFORMANCE. In most birds the only signs of mild subclinical infection you will see are 1) An excess of tears in the eye. When you press on the waddle you will see bubbles form in the corner of the eye. 2) When you put the bird's beak next to your ear you will hear a distinct "puff" each time it breathes. A bird that is not excited should not produce hardly any sound when it breathes. You should treat your race team for 10 days before the season starts and 3 days at the 1st of each week during the race season for respiratory infection. My favorite drug combination is Tylan (2,500 mg/gallon) and Doxycycline (750 mg/gallon). This is one of two problems that you must practice defensive medicine with while racing. I would typically never recommend using antibiotics without having the disease - but you WILL PICK UP RESPIRATORY INFECTION IN THE BASKET. Recently a drug called Suanovil (Spiromycin) has become available. it is very effective and can be used in place of Tylan in the Tylan - Doxycycline mixture. The dose varies with the form you buy so read the label. Coccidiosis: Coccidia is another problem that will really hurt performance. I maintain that you should treat your birds if you HAVE ANY LEVEL OF INFECTION. This differs from some of the European vets that treat only if you get a large # of the bug on a fecal check. I disagree for 3 reasons: 1) Coccidia is shed in cycles. One day there will be a lot in a bird's fecal and the next day very few - you can get fooled from day to day. 2) Individual birds vary immensely in there level of infection. Unless you are going to check each and every bird on your team you will miss some with large numbers. 3) If you have any coccidia, as the stress of racing and training goes on you will soon have a ton. You should treat and keep it under control. Remember, coccidia is not infective when it is 1st passed in the droppings. It has to sit around for a couple of days 1st. So, SCRAPE YOUR LOFT EVERY DAY and you should nave a minimal coccidia problem. Treat with Sulmet (1 Tbs/gallon) or Amprol/Corid (1 tsp/gallon). Another great drug is Baycox if you can get it.
Canker: Now is deep rooted and takes some shifting: Canker is caused by the one-celled organism that is called trichomonas. You cannot rely on looking for the typical canker lesion of cheese in the mouth as to whether you have the bug or not. Any level of infection (like respiratory) will really hurt performance. You can only diagnose it with throat swabs by a veterinarian. You should treat before the season and as with respiratory treat during the season. Two to three days at the 1st of every other week during the season should do the trick. Use emtryl (1/4 - 3/8 tsp/gallon) or Ridsol (3/4 tsp/gallon)/ Spartrix also works but must be given individually. It is critical to make sure the drug you are using is working . Have throat swabs checked after you have treated! We are seeing resistance to emtryl and ridzol. If you have a strain of canker in which these two drugs don't work use Flagyl ( metronidazole) at 1500-2000 mg/gallon for 3 days
Haemoproteus: This is a blood parasite that is transmitted from bird to bird by pigeon flies. It will cause anemia and very poor performance. To prevent transmission you must control the pigeon fly - it will not pass from bird to bird just by contact. To treat haemoproteus if you have it, treat for 2 weeks before the season and 2 days during the week each week of race season. Use atabrine at 200 mg/gallon. The pill form is not available anymore, but most pigeon vets can get a generic form of the powder and prepare it for you to use. It initially was very expensive, but now is getting more reasonable.
Healthy Pigeons Win Races - Part 3
This is the last in a three part series taken from the seminar given by Dr. Steve Weir at the 1993 AU convention in Chicago. Updated by Dr. Weir March 16 1999 Using a Veterinarian
If you will remember back to part one we discussed how critical it was to keep our birds in "Super" health - not just apparently healthy as MOST OF US DO. Organisms that cause canker, coccidia, respiratory disease, etc. can be present in our birds, greatly hampering our performance, yet the birds still look and act good. The only way to know if you have coccidia, worms, trichomonas (canker), and haemoproteus is to have fecals, throat swabs, and blood smears done. For all practical purposes it is easier to have a veterinarian do it for you. If you monitor and control these problems before and during the race and breeding seasons, you will be way ahead of the game and can achieve that "Super" health. Using a veterinarian gives you many advantages including:
1. You will know if you have a problem. You will not treat needlessly . 3. You will know the proper drug to use. You will know the proper dosage of the drug. And you will know how long to treat. It will cost less £’s by far in the long run.
This following scenario is a typical one that I receive on the phone and by simply using a veterinarian it could be avoided. "Hi Doc. I'm having a terrible problem in my young birds. I had a couple die and my buddy told me it must be canker, so I treated them with emtryl. That didn't work and I had 5 more die. Another friend came and looked at them and said it was coccidia because they had greed droppings so I game them some Amprol. They sort of acted better, but they got bad again so I put them on some Terramycin for salmonella. Since then I have lost 25 more young ones and the ones I have left look terrible. What do you think". I think he could still have a young bird team if he just would have sought professional help 1st. Any veterinarian is capable of doing fecals, throat swabs, and blood smears and it isn't that expensive. If you are having problems and the common things like your regular vet can’t find coccidia, worms, canker, etc., just get in contact with one of the pigeon veterinarians around the country. They are very versed in pigeon medicine and would be glad to help.
A Realistic Health Program
Before YB races: Vaccinate for pox, PMV, and paratyphoid 30 - 45 days before training begins. (Though I never have.
Some vaccinate a couple or so 1st or second week of racing: this may well Devastated other lofts.
Before breeding in the winter: Vaccinate all old birds, breeders, & YB you are keeping for PMV and paratyphoid.
This will get all YB vaccinated 2 times for PMV and paratyphoid as youngsters and will give all OB and breeders a yearly booster.
Before racing: Screen race birds (esp. OB) for haemoproteus. Treat if you have it with atabrine and then treat 2 days weekly during the season. If your performance drops off during the season and you aren't treating because you didn't find it before the season - recheck in case you missed it.
Before racing: Treat all race birds for ornithose complex for 10 days. Treat AT LEAST every other week during the season for 3 days the 1st of each week to prevent infection from exposure to other race birds.
Before racing: Check all birds for worms and coccidia. Treat if needed. Recheck every 2 weeks during the season and treat if needed early in the week.
Before racing: Treat for canker for 3 - 5 days. Treat at least every other week during the season to control canker picked up in the shipping crates.
Before breeding: Check all birds for worms and coccidia. Treat if needed. Recheck every 2 weeks during the season and treat if needed.
Before breeding: Treat all birds for canker and retreat every 2 - 3 weeks during the breeding season.
If you will follow this health plan you will control the common bugs that your birds will get. If you are getting sick pigeons on this program you need to consult a pigeon veterinarian to help you solve the problem - as it won't be the easy stuff.
Miscellaneous questions:
Q: Every time I have a fecal checked my birds are loaded with coccidia. I have treated with Amprol and Sulmet, but they aren't working. What can I use.
A: The problem isn't the drug - both work - Sulmet is better - but the drugs are fine. Your problem is reinfection due to poor loft hygiene. Remember, coccidia when 1st passed in the droppings will not infect another bird. It must sit around for 36 - 72 hours to sporulate and become infective to other pigeons. If removed during that time it can't infect another bird. Coccidia is also a self-limiting disease. In other words when a bird eats a coccidia oocyst it multiplies a FIXED number of times in the bird's intestine and then is shed out completely. If you take a bird infected with coccidia and put him on a wire where he cannot ingest fecal material he will "cure" himself of coccidia. The only possible reason you are having problems since both of the drugs you have used work is that your birds are getting reinfected. CLEAN YOUR LOFT DAILY.
Q: I had several old birds develop large blackish growths on their bodies and wings. Only one to a bird. What is it?
A: What you are describing are "blood warts" or as we call them basalomas or temporary tumors. They are benign growths thought to be related to pox virus. They will eventually dry up and fall off and will not hurt the bird. If you tie a string around the base of the tumor and cut off it's blood supply it will fall off a lot sooner. Don't worry about them. Most flyers have never seen it and it likely won't be back in your loft again for a long time.
The above article comes from notes taken during a seminar given by Dr. Steve Weir at the 1993 AU convention. Updated by Dr. Weir March 16 1999 For the I.F. home page. Dr. Weir is a small animal veterinarian in Catoosa Oklahoma. He has flown pigeons successfully for many years and helps pigeon flyers from around the country with health problems. He can be contacted at Catoosa Small Animal Hospital, Box 1559 Catoosa Oklahoma, 74015 918-266-40090 Fax 918-266-4143
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PostSubject: Re: YB Not Right....   Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:20 pm

Daz.
I am afraid that the pigeons of today (the vast majority) are unhealthy and the above may be the reason along with flock treatments.

I suggested using the RPRA OLR loft as an experiment.

Get as many as possible fanciers to send 6 pigeons each to the loft totally untreated for anything, just give them the compulsory vaccination and no other treatment what so ever, no artificial products, just clean sound feed, no treatment for any that fell ill and see how many survived.

My guess very few would survive.

Regards.
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PostSubject: Re: YB Not Right....   Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:37 am

whats yer views on preventative treatments misty, cocci, canker and worms.......?

ive heard many fanciers claim their birds do not have worms, but how would they know without treating with the correct medication, yes they may not see anything if they use certain products, but use the correct ones and they are clearly seen within a day or two.

I was surprised the first time I used a good product, it was like an explosion in a spaghetti factory....
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PostSubject: Re: YB Not Right....   Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:06 am

Never ever gave the pigeons preventative medication, nor anything else of a chemical make up.

All my pigeons ever had was garlic in the water and an abundance of lime around the loft.

They never showed any sign of ill health and you should not touch that which is not broken.

If your pigeons have all these problems try a method that does not.


Regards.

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PostSubject: Re: YB Not Right....   Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:36 am

a dry loft is a must ….a wormer is advisable in most livestock for obvious reasons ,a lot of health issues are caused by worms and mistaken for other things in my humble opinion anyone that advocates not worming is on a dodgey wicket and on the road to a fall ...you have all the proof you need david regards worming m8 its the antibiotic crew that need reigning in not someone who worms his birds twice a year atb
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PostSubject: Re: YB Not Right....   Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:59 am

I very rarely treat... never have too. I know my pigeons are in tip top fettle.
Like you Misty, I'm a great believer in Lime, and constitution of birds and a immune system that has progressed over time.
I, often write with fork tongue so to speak though. By this I have to be aware, mare are ignorant of many facts and truths. Have problem's relating even to the most simple basis of reality. I write there fore with a view of new comers and ones that may have an eye open for improvement. One becomes comfortable with Habits I'm afraid, and not many like change.
Impatience runs riot and too many like their ears being tickled by those that should know better.


As for ' …… Get as many as possible fanciers to send 6 pigeons each to the loft totally untreated for anything, just give them the compulsory vaccination and no other treatment what so ever, no artificial products, just clean sound feed, no treatment for any that fell ill and see how many survived.

My guess very few would survive. I fear is an absolute truth.

One often see whinges and moans regards pigeons going down with illnesses when bought / brought into their loft!
All lofts have certain ailments prevalent … The birds there are immune and as such maybe a carrier etc, But a new introduction maybe can't. Their immunity needs to be built up in this regards.
Must say here, and am mindful of any new comer reading this, I very rare if ever treated a sick bird - Mind hardly had too - but left it. 9 times out of 10 they recovered well and went on as good as new... and passed on an immunity to the off spring!
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PostSubject: Re: YB Not Right....   Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:30 pm

I always worm twice per year I never used to until droppings test result came back everytime after the racing season with a positive result for worms in particular hairworms which cannot be seen often with the naked eye also had a few bought in which would have been culled but for being wormed ...a lot of different scenarios from loft to loft and no 2 are the same what may work for one wont for the other my reasoning for worming is based upon what we use in the baskets on our transporter and proven test results not just treating willy nilly
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PostSubject: Re: YB Not Right....   Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:39 pm

oldstrain

Of course if you know your pigeons have a problem then the sensible thing is to deal with it.

If I had a problem I would first think WHY.

Problems all have a cause.

In my opnion many heath problems arose from using grills which you cannot possibly clean all areas of, and they build up harmful bacteria and this goes on on a continual basis, as does just craping out and not getting into the nooks and cranies, this gives a loft ideal conditions for numerous problems.

When you use lime it kills many harmful bacteria and if put into nooks and cranies on a regular basis keeps the loft germ free and sweet.

Garlic does the same for a pigeons digestive sustem, (if you read the BHW only two weeks ago a top fancier said all he ever uses is garlic which he grows himself and no other products) actual results based on facts beat any theory.

If I had a problem with worms or anything else I would want to know why and not just keep treating it.

Regards.


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PostSubject: Re: YB Not Right....   Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:15 pm

misty see above post for problem its whats used on the transporter nothing to do with whats going on at home do you honestly think everyone is naïve indeed everyone should know their birds and I know mine theirs no problem in the stock section and every angle has been covered,we use easy bed in the baskets of the transporter not for me but its whats used ,like I said theirs no one size fits all as a lot of circumstances from loft to loft are different ...a blow torch will do all that lime does without the dust so that's what I use along with a bit of sand I have tried these anti-bacterial powders but they are to dusty for me
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PostSubject: Re: YB Not Right....   Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:54 pm

I know there are many roads to Rome, it was whist reading about the Roman army that I learned about the benefit of garlic and it's properties.

Every soldier had to eat a clove of garlic every day and they marched for days on end and suffered less health problems than other soldiers.

I learned about lime from a chap named Stroud who wrote a book regarding keeping birds.

So I have only incororated what others have proven to be beneficial.

I do not call anyone nieve, but if they are having problems and others are not then they are doing something wrong.

If fanciers send their birds to a race and come back showing signs of illness and others do not it just proves the immune system of the latter is working and the former has none.

If a blow torch is used as a means of keepng a loft free from disease it must be done on a very regular basis and I cannot see how it can be wholey effect on grills, and will be only short term effect whilst lime is 100% resident.

It is up to the individual as to what he/she decides to do in the sport and this has nothing to do with anyone else but to kick different ideas around when there are so many problems, in regard to health in particular, it is better to consider all the possible causes, if fanciers have a problem there is a cause you cannot blame the pigeon.


Regards.

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PostSubject: Re: YB Not Right....   Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:45 am

sorry misty but your being silly now theirs no issue with the birds just a slight hairworm count due to the material in the baskets ...I don't know if you have noticed before but pigeons can look 100% yet have a worm count ,touch of canker ,slight fungal issue etc...it does not mean you have problems because you use a wormer twice a year ...you are reverting to pigeon chat form which is not fair here ,we all have opinions and I have mine if my birds are picking up worms from the transporter I want to keep on top of it... am I irresponsible ,tests are clear on stock birds always and racers at the start of the season so the problems on the transporter that's why I used the word naive ,blow torch is used every other day my lungs best friend and I only have 1 section with grills which gets sprayed monthly with virkons ,romans on the warpath I have no idea about same as the sailors with lemon and scurvy what I do know is that what you fail to recognise is that you were indeed using a preventative in the form of garlic daily yourself and yet when someone else uses a different one its a load of rubbish,a few guys down our club fly in the manner that you do misty and they are the ones that usually stop racing earlier than anyone else I wonder why this is maybe they have not quite mastered the art of "OPEN HOLE" atb
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PostSubject: Re: YB Not Right....   Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:53 am

Well often hear 'Ill... I just cull... IF others are fine and it's not, only one place for it' etc.

Now the bird that has an ailment, whilst others haven't may well be it is off different parents etc. and they haven't had chance to become immune to it! Hence why 'Hospital isolations' if must, but like I say I'd rather leave to get over it... I then know once over it that they have now an immunity for whatever it was … and hence will pass it's immunity onto the off spring.
Constitution and immunity is essential to healthy birds.
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PostSubject: Re: YB Not Right....   Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:26 am

Agee entirely Daz, have said the same for ????? years, if you go along those lines you have a few initial problems, you will lose some pigeons to illnesses that they cannot cope with but eventually have a family of pigeons whose natural health needs no artificial prop ups.

Regards.
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