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Oldstrain/Darren`s Winner of winners. 2012.
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 Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?

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David
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PostSubject: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:26 pm

whats members thoughts on the darkness system, do you think it gives the birds an extra advantage racing against natural young birds, can natural ybs compete and win against darkness ybs ....?

yes I know dark ybs might race the full yb program due to them not dropping to bits moulting, but when it comes down to performance and racing, can natural birds win against darkness birds, and is it worth the trouble of putting them on the dark, rather than leaving them natural...?

would breeding early be the alternative to putting ybs on thee dark...?
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:39 pm

the naturals will compete until the moulting kicks in so for second half of the season the darkies do have an advantage but its not to say they are better birds themselves jmo mind you ...it would be much better to have a later racing season then we could breed in better weather and all race natural on an even playing field ,I have no doubt natural ybs are better in general and exerice better I found and don't have the stress of going through a un-natural moult very early in their development ,this year I bred 12 of each and next year will be happy to breed later again and just have a few races with them they are near past racing now but have had 3 races and could have had 4 ,I doubt I will send any this week their cover feathers and flights are not in the shape for a stiff headwind in damp conditions but the few darkies I have will go so they do have the advantage of condition as to whether it affects them as yearlings is another matter they seem to race and moult fine
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:57 pm

so if ybs were bred earlier, would they have moulted to the stage of dark birds, by the time racing comes around........I know they will still moult the wing flights, but would they have moulted body , neck etc by the time the yb season comes around ...?
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:15 pm

xmas babies do but I found a few hold their nest flights doing this and you have ybs out and about in January and these get a lot of attention from bop also training has to start earlier with them so it has its downfalls
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:24 pm

Most around here use the dark system. With good results. I have never tried it. So hard to compete. This year I am using the light system. Which means that the longest day of the year, June 20 or bit later, I put the lights on few hours in the morning and night. Timer. Same hours as the longest day. Now as regards moulting. The ones banded January 4th are thru the body moult and have 4 or 5 flights out. The ones banded March are similar. There are some that have moulted further and some not so far on. But each bird is different. When I finish racing them lights are out. Some will moult fast, others retain one or two flights until next year. Not a problem.
First race this year was 5th club with an early bred one. Sent 15. Other members sent up to 60. Last night shipped 18. Others 58 or less. All darkened. Do not expect good results as first race for all. Trained a few times 20 miles plus one longer toss. Still have 20 at home. They all go next week. 205 miles.
Members losses are great. Unfortunately.
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:58 pm

Darkness. Well they have a strain completing the moult … but gain from a full wind.
Natural Have advantage of rest and contentment … Then third flight down syndrome.  They get extra strength because of the moult. Like the lady does having the baby.
You have all seen the remarkable feats in athletics for instance when 40 odd olds come back and in no time win Gold. Indeed who can forget Liz Mcloughlin winning the 10.000 metres at the 1992 World games. Beating not only the African's but the fearful Chinese...
Again this past Europeans Games etc.
Okay this way of nature is for such natural events … yet will take advantage eh!

Could the Darkness be linked also to our losses?
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:14 pm

Well just clocked two. Nestmates. Light system. One at 1300 mpm other 5 mins later. Usually clock one or two and open lofts. 1st race for the birds. 40 plus mile overfly so may score. Does not matter. Have a good idea what to keep so far.
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:35 pm

well done hal a good pointer nest mates being clocked in such circumstances I would say atb
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:40 pm

Daz, go against nature over a prolonged period and there is only one winner, and it is not the one bucking it.

Anyone thinking the darkness system does not have an adverse effect on the pigeon is in dream land.

The pigeons are deprived of daylight and the sun at a period when they require it most and to interfere with the moult cannot possibly have any health advantage in the long run.

Everything is down to today and blow tommorow, many pigeons are useless at the two year old stage, yearlings winning most races and after spent forces.

All the starting racing later has been mooted many years ago and many times since, the weather in September and October is often far better racing weather than at any other time in the year.

As for the moult and the primary flights etc; I and many other fanciers have won when the pigeon has been in varying stages of the moult, using common sense is the prime requirement.

When migratory birds take off for thousands of miles flights just what stage of their moult do you think they are in??.

I think Daz, that the sport is just starting to have the come upance for the way it has taken the win at any cost system to heart with little regard for the possible long term detrimental effects.

The pigeons health today is far inferior to those of 50 or more years ago and they will continue to go down hill as they become immune to all the curative and preventative rubbish being put down their throats and need other such as matters get worse, and new problems arrise.

SAD so vety, very, SAD.


Regards.





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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:00 pm

Agree Misty 100%
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:05 am

Daz wrote:
Agree Misty 100%
Never tried darkness/lightness type systems etc in an attempt to gain some advantage as such Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes. I do know for a fact Wink Wink late breds here bounce bounce never dropping a flight Smile Smile & under 6 months of age, fly 5/600 miles & in the past have even flown 700 odd miles at times. cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:21 am

I do not use the light system to get an advantage. For me it is easier to have young birds to race. In various stages of moult. Pick and choose. All healthy.
My way of doing things is not the usual way. But it does show me the good ones or potential good ones. Minimal training then race them. Distance does not matter. The best will come through. Weather here 35C and humid. So be it. That will be the weather of the future. Hundreds of forest fires here in Canada. Hazy skies. But what I need are birds that will adapt. Heat, humidity, go it alone type. Losses will be high. No problem. Saves me culling. The best birds are from a few families is all. So why do I need a lot? Lost 5 first race. 9 out of 19 home from todays race. Within two hours then nothing. Now. If some could do it they all should. I have enough to compete for the next few weeks. Ruthless method but I am happy. Method seems to be working. Many stock birds slated to dispense with. But each to their own.
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:57 pm

Knackered,
Remember Mr Hall whose clock I used to run to bought two Smiths Grizzles, they were strawberry grizzles and were covered in so much yellow fluff that you would not believe if you did not see it.

They were late bred but flew every young bird race including the short water race of that time.

There is no reason at all why very young pigeons cannot fly the programme.

Regards.
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:25 am

MISTY wrote:
Knackered,
              Remember Mr Hall whose clock I used to run to bought two Smiths Grizzles, they were strawberry grizzles and were covered in so much yellow fluff that you would not believe if you did not see it.

            They were late bred but flew every young bird race including the short water race of that time.

           There is no reason at all why very young pigeons cannot fly the programme.

Regards.  
Fear factor plays a part I suggest Misty Wink Wink Could take you too a flyer today, who I toss with at the weekend etc who has just started tossing his late breds here & we are two months into our race season. At times a Cinderella type story from my experience. Ugly duckling types at the start of the season bounce bounce but by the end Smile Smile with the right management it can be a Cinderella type ending Smile Smile. cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:11 am

Hard enough for the working fancier as it is, how can he get his pigeons exercised and trained in October when it's dark in morning and evenings?
I know people are suggesting alternatives for various reasons but the good dedicated fanciers who work full time and are currently winning week in, week out racing through the usual months don't need end of year YB racing. People trying to take things forward but by ignoring and excluding working lads will lead to even more fanciers pack up the sport without any doubt. How would that be progress?
Better pigeons with a system and understanding of how to give pigeons the best chance of racing home, not just trailing in throughout the race or days later, that's the way forward IMO.
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:49 am

The whole point is not what suits fanciers using a certain system but the future of the sport.

If you are winning every race, perhaps it's time to give someone else a chance.

There will never be a system that suits everyone but the losses encountered and the overall situation within the sport needs urgent attention.

If I had, had to take pigeons training every day I would not have been interested in the sport.

It is the sport that counts not individual fanciers methods.

Regards.
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:09 am

On reflection it could be difficult for some fanciers to let their pigeons out if the hours of darkness was against doing so, however, they would have had numerous opportunities to get them fit over longer period than if raced earlier, and if pigeons go down hill within a couple of weeks it says a lot about them.

There are races held at Christmas with no problems.

Every time a suggestion is put forward for the benefit of the pigeons first and the fancier second it is rubbished by some and that is why the sport is in it's present state.


Regards.
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:06 am

And my point is discriminating against working fanciers won't help the sport survive at all. If you can't beat them racing between April through to September then don't change the goalposts just so you can make it even more difficult for them. By all means have open races in October if enough people want them, same as Christmas if that's your thing then that's great.
What's not benefitting pigeons first and foremost are vast numbers of young birds been bred from bits of paper, just hoping something will get a prize. People pairing birds together where you have to go back 3 generations to even find a bird that's been flown outside of the loft never mind won anything, then wondering why they go missing. The same people blame the weather, convoyer, winners using something drug related, blame anything and everyone but themselves and their birds. So if you're beating these types week in week out because what you are doing is on the right track, why should you be giving them a chance?
Each to their own I suppose.


Last edited by barnie on Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:38 am

too much doom and gloom of late on this forum and not enough enjoyment for those that are still actually racing or keeping pigeons,its a sad FACT that time is running out for pigeon racing at club level I don't think its all about the methods and feeds and complication as to why we are declining in numbers its about modern lifestyle,people don't want a few hours of daily chores around the loft they want a easy life at the touch of a button they don't want to be scrapping out sh1+£ on a daily basis and doing drinkers and feeding etc...etc...it takes up a lot of your time and most just are not into it for what it is they want something out of it ,so when someone starts up unless they get the real bug they soon realise its a lot of hard work for little return apart from the enjoyment of being around the birds and racing on the weekend so unless you have a deep infinity with the hobby its generally not attractive and a lot of work in this modern age ...for me pigeon racing at club level will not be saved despite any efforts it was and still is a fantastic hobby for the enthusiasts but for those looking in from the outside they often ask me why all the effort and cost for little return and heartache ,oh but for raceday and seeing the bundle of feathers homing in on the loft cheers as for racing later in the year I was thinking of having a basic yb and ob programme where they go on the same transporter but maybe a different liberation and race from june to end of September as October is too late but it wont change the older fanciers wont have it ,if any suggestion for something out the norm is proposed theirs uproar so your damned if you do and damned if you don't lol! lol! lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:40 pm

barnie,
My reply was to start fanciers thinking and not personal, I agree that many fanciers moan when they have only themselves to blame for losses etc; they all have an equal chance regarding the basic rules.

The fact is that thousands of pigeons have been bred based on paper pedigrees, and pigeons whose great grandparents and those in between have never seen a basket.

Then you have studs that supply advantaged fanciers with some of the best
youngsters free and then sell from all in the stud based on the results of those given.

Then you have fanciers throwing everything other than the kitchen sink down their pigeons throats etc;

And they wonder why they lose them.

The discerning fancier who puts every effort into his/her pigeons deserves just reward.

However, if something is not done and soon there will be no sport worth talking about., and I just wish more fanciers would realise the fact and come up with some possible solutions.

Regards.

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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:11 pm

ive made quite a few mistakes this season, its been quite a few years since I last raced, I think it was the 2014 yb season, only managed 5 races, but I enjoyed it all the same................this disaster of a season can only be used as a learning season, and hopefully I can build on it for next year.

im seriously thinking of just breeding early, and keeping ybs on natural, I don't think the time and effort on the dark is really worth it....... scratch study
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:29 pm

Never met anyone who did not make mistakes, met plenty who thought they didn't.

It is by doing so that you learn, how boring if you new everything, it is great fun making mistakes and sorting them out, so long as they are not too /????.

Leave the darkness alone David, it is far better if they see in the sun and enjoy it at a crucial time in their life.

How anyone in sound mind can thimk that the darkness system is good for the pigeons future health, in my opinion needs ????.

Regards.


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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:45 pm

yes daz, I think I will leave it alone........especially at this stage of my "pigeon career" , I remember a few years ago before I tried darkness, my ybs would fly for hours, going off ranging etc, but for me putting them on dark hampers there development , all they want to do is sit around the loft, which is no good once racing comes around as they havnt ventured past the end of our street.......

if I stick to natural, and breed maybe 30 ybs, im sure whilst some will be dropping to bits on Friday basketing and they cant go, some will be feathered enough to go........
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:26 pm

David,
If I had not been able to have complete open loft and the young birds were kept separate I would have bred them in two lots an early lot and a later lot, and kept them separate, fed them to go into a natural moult with a little help with the correct seed, heat, oil, etc

If done properly with not all pigeons responding in a like manner you would always have enough to compete with.

The only problem would be, as some fanciers think, the primaries, but I have won with pigeons with 8 1/2 primaries.

With open loft I never had a problem and always youngsters in good condition to race throughout the season.

Would rather have packed in than used the darkness system and I do not think any young person would think it acceptable.


Regards.




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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:07 am

David. You are on the right track. Not all birds conform to the dark or light system. Mine were on the light this year. Some are not in shape to fly due to moult, some are. The majority. Birds darkened (or on the light) do much better. As young birds. As yearlings some will fall by the wayside. But many do not. It depends on what wants to accomplish. Win at all costs? Gets expensive! Win occasionally beating the members? Depends situation. Ease of management? Old birds widowhood is the way to go there. Never tried it but today split up the old birds. Will do it next year. 16 cocks. Any good young birds will fly natural. Smaller section different loft. 2 years coming, two competing, two to three breeding. Of course all can be extended. Guy won first 25 positions in one of the Fed clubs here. He has many. Again all darkened birds. For people who want to go back to the so called "good old days" then do so. It is not the way to win consistently. I am changing to widow cocks next year. The yearling cocks, small section, will be mated to older proven hens. They are for the distance races.
Misty. Read your comment on feral pigeons. I tried it my way for immunity purposes. Worked for me. But many years since I have had a sick bird. I tried my method. You did not even try your feral experiment. So back off!!
I am not stuck in the mud and spout doom and gloom in every post. Either say something positive or shut up.
Regards.
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