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 Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?

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Knackered
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:20 am

halcanada wrote:
David. You are on the right track. Not all birds conform to the dark or light system. Mine were on the light this year. Some are not in shape to fly due to moult, some are. The majority. Birds darkened (or on the light) do much better. As young birds. As yearlings some will fall by the wayside. But many do not. It depends on what wants to accomplish. Win at all costs? Gets expensive! Win occasionally beating the members? Depends situation. Ease of management? Old birds widowhood is the way to go there. Never tried it but today split up the old birds. Will do it next year. 16 cocks. Any good young birds will fly natural. Smaller section different loft. 2 years coming, two competing, two to three breeding. Of course all can be extended. Guy won first 25 positions in one of the Fed clubs here. He has many. Again all darkened birds. For people who want to go back to the so called "good old days" then do so. It is not the way to win consistently. I am changing to widow cocks next year. The yearling cocks, small section, will be mated to older proven hens. They are for the distance races.
Misty. Read your comment on feral pigeons. I tried it my way for immunity purposes. Worked for me. But many years since I have had a sick bird. I tried my method. You did not even try your feral experiment. So back off!!
I am not stuck in the mud and spout doom and gloom in every post. Either say something positive or shut up.
Regards.
Smile Smile Wink Wink. cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:52 am

Another thing I hated was the darkness but you have to be on it to compete in my eyes..Still don't like it but on it
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:38 am

funny how these topics drift lol! at the end of the day the question was does it make a difference ,well it certainly does in the 2nd half of the yb season ,is it all worth it for 5 extra races in good condition ? well that's the question to ask yourself at the end of the day ,because that's exactly what it amounts to without all the frilly bits lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:36 am

Hal,
Burying ones head in the sand thinking you have everything sorted when thousands of pigeons are lost every year even using all the methods you suggest, the pigeons in most cases drug dependant and useless within a very short time and not interested in others opinions and experiences is the reason the sport is in a mess, self satisfaction has it's drawbacks.

My intention regarding using ferals was to invigorate and strengthen the racing pigeon BHW and the RP 50 years ago not yesterday.

In hindsight anyone can be pedantic and insulting.

I never had to treat my pigeons for any ailment for over 50 years, I bred few and lost few, I bred numerous pigeons for other fanciers that both won and bred winners from them.

I was never bothered just about winning it was pigeon first and me second, the get them down the road the best will come does not matter how many you breed some will survive is a method that I would never contemplate nor advocate to any new comer.

Every pigeon that I bred to race, I did cull young from the nest having used them for old bird racing, had an equal chance, and like humans, normal ones, not the ones who never make a mistake, that made a mistake were given another chance and often proved to be the best.

Since learning that the sport was run by disreputable people involved, and any intelligent person should appreciate this would be challenged if not true, I have strived to improve the sport , not for the know it alls but for every fancier and for that I make no apology.

Regards.





I
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:56 am

Sticking with the original question then, "Darkness, does it make a difference?" From my experience yes. Although I got to the point when I generally raced a good natural YB anyway, once on darkness they were winning a lot more prizes. Furthermore returns were better, birds were performing as a team with multiple drops together (before ETS) and there was always a decent team choice to send 9 weeks in a row and you could get them down the road to over 260 miles. At the end of the racing season there was plenty choice what to keep for the following year rather than just having to keep what you were left with on natural.
I also realised whoever was top man with YB's could probably end up top flier in the club overall and I think in many cases that still rings true today.

If/when I start again, will  I race darkness? Probably not at first because of work shift pattern.
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:34 pm

peel bros wrote:
Another thing I hated was the darkness but you have to be on it to compete in my eyes..Still don't like it but on it
all that needs to be said Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:44 pm

Take all your points which are valid when all not on the open hole system.

My pigeons old and young together had the chance to be air borne every daylight hour, there were young born at different times and throughout the season several capable of beating any darkness youngsters if good enough with regard to condition.

I appreciate that if one has work commitments etc; and cannot have an open loft then the darkness pigeons would and do have an advantage but at what cost in the long run no one knows.

You cannot interfere with nature with disregard to the possible adverse effects they may have in the future and no one knows what they may be.

The fact is that if the majority of fanciers are using the system and the advantaged ones are, then darkness youngsters cannot help but win.


I feel one of the biggest problems has been the more diverse people entering the sport who are involved in many different social and work commitments that give them problems to be involved without it becoming too big a problem.

One mans meat etc;

Regards.
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:09 pm

Just read a conveyors report regarding his thoughts on losses.

He says he has seen pigeons at the liberation site showing signs of dehydration, prior to release and says it may be bad management by fanciers, the fanciers not training their pigeons to drink in the baskets.

I have said dehydration could be a factor many times and suggested a vet be employed to see the state of the pigeons at several liberation sites prior to liberation.

The only time a pigeons condition matters is at liberation nothing prior matters.

If I was a conveyor and seen pigeons with the signs I would have been reluctant to liberate.

A fancier can only do his/her best towards training the pigeons to drink in the panniers but cannot replicate what may go on in them, nor the effect the transporter may have on the pigeons taking into consideration all that the transporter may encounter during transportation.

No pigeon can fly any distance when suffering from dehydration, nor without help can recover rapidly.

The fact is that if a pigeon is in first class condition and better than the majority it is that one than can be affected the most.

But why bother attempting to improve matters lets just talk about mundane matters and let the losses continue or how can the parasites make a living from the sport?.

Regards.





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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:34 pm

Agree a lot often with what you say Misty. Was a time when young birds were put straight into a basket, then placed in new compartment in the basket. Fed and watered in the basket, to be let in and out after a few days BEFORE ever seeing out side. Then allowed open door or aviary traps down. I found this very good and for some reason, like I was told by him Mr Robinson. Yes I found this very good and seemed to counteract losses big time.
some used to place in basket over looking the loft etc. before ever allowed out... Indeed was taught this from an early age.


But regardless how successful I found this, I must say I believe any and every pigeon soon learn to copy and drink from the basket / panniers. Doubt it needs training... But feel it is the dominate old cock bird - in o/b'd that keep guard and won't allow others to drink... Now a days youngsters are big enough to fly Lewick, or near before ever entering a pannier, so maybe the same thing applies.
But pigeons are daft and quickly follow suit to drink. J.M.O.
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:31 pm

do members here teach their ybs to drink in the basket, I didn't this year....if it made a difference I don't know, but is it a good thing or not ?

I remember our member graham/birdy (sadly no longer with us), he would always have his ybs in the basket, every day they couldn't exercise around the loft, either high winds or raining, he would basket them up and put the drinkers on..........it was well known on the forum he would do this, we always knew when the weather was bad, graham had got his ybs in the basket Razz lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:33 pm

Well I don't think for a moment it would have any down effects, could only good.

As I said / told the story before, Mr Robinson told me that youngsters wean in the basket, then introduced to the new loft, whilst still fed and water in the basket and allowed out there etc. will be hard to lose. Don't know why. But I certainly have faith in it due to the few losses I had etc. when other lofts face hard times.
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:25 pm

I cannot see why training a pigeon to drink in the basket can do any harm, other than they may not have the same situation with other pigeons in the paniers

I never ever trained my pigeons in a basket for anything.

At times the first time they went into a basket was their first race.

Any animal instinctively knows where water is and a hard lesson learned early is not forgotten, if they have to fight for it the first time they know what to expect, if they have been used to getting everything easy. ?????.

In the aviary where I kept canaries for over 40 years the water was 7' in the air and I never lost a canary for lack of water.

We tend to under extimate our feathered friends.


Regards.

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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:58 am

The same applies to improving the immune system, along with getting a pigeon fit.

On open hole a pigeon will exercise every muscle etc; in it's body, up and down from ground to loft many times a day, flying possibly 200 miles a day around the loft and maybe far more, grubbing around in the garden improving the immune system etc;.

The same does not apply to pigeons kept in clinical conditions, they need constant medication etc; when training they go in the basket let go and that is that.

Of course you can win with robots but at what cost to the pigeon and the sport in general, and the pigeon in particular?.

Regards.






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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:10 pm

David wrote:
do members here teach their ybs to drink in the basket, I didn't this year....if it made a difference I don't know, but is it a good thing or not ?

I remember our member graham/birdy (sadly no longer with us), he would always have his ybs in the basket, every day they couldn't exercise around the loft, either high winds or raining, he would basket them up and put the drinkers on..........it was well known on the forum he would do this, we always knew when the weather was bad, graham had got his ybs in the basket Razz lol!
yeah drinkers on basket from start, drop hemp in to encourage them to dunk for them, it works but how much this helps I don't know, imo they improve with the experience of the race basket, always thirsty when home after first couple of races Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:47 am

Just looked in again. Reading the comments. Knackered. Congrats on winning!
Misty. Was not being insulting as such. However the agenda you are stipulating will not work in todays pigeon racing. Ray with darkness. Does not like it but does it. One has to keep up with the competition. Like it or not. Darkness, light, widowhood etc,. Special feeds and meds. Constant training of young birds.
The ideal way as mentioned by another on here, old fanciers winning, is a combination of the old and the new. Natural is by definition unnatural to a pigeon. Pigeons were not evolved to race home. Same as greyhounds and horses. If a person just wants to see his birds home from a race then why bother sending them? Costs money. Adapt and advance to win. Of course money rules the sport! Same as horses and dogs. My methods are for the selection of pigeons that will have a superior homing ability, with little training. 100% health with no meds. Why? Because the year will arrive when I cannot fly in a Fed or club. So One Lofters will be the answer. Sending a bird fit and smart is about all that counts. Go it alone type of bird. Have won some previous. Years back.
The love of pigeons means nothing today. Win some big ones money will come in. Clubs do not have the exposure to pigeon buyers. Fed winners get noticed. As do one loft winners. One cannot go back to the club in every town scenario. Your calls for that to happen will have little effect. Sure people will not get off their butts to promote the sport. Why should they?
Wars, famines, floods and other natural and unnatural disasters happen yearly if not daily. Always have. Unless one is personally effected no one really cares. Same as club racing. Brick wall. But enjoy as one can.
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:19 am

Hal,
Many call the system natural when it is anything but.

Just because it does not involve widowhood and the darkness system does not make it natural.

I am far from being the only one who used and uses the actual natural system, complete open loft, a haven that is protected for them, good food, do entirely as they want.

You could hardly get anything more natural and also both young and old together.

Just read the publications regarding the sport and you will see periodically those who win out of turn in some of the best competitive races using the system.

As for money, I am a member of the Bowling Club where I pay an annual fee, I also pay an annual fee as a member of the snooker club, I pay an annual fee to go salmon fishing, etc; and when we go dancing, which we will in about an hours time in the Spa Ball room I pay an entrance fee.

I do not expect nor want anyone else to pay for them and the same goes for pigeon racing, money does not grow on trees and one can only be taking money from another fancier probably not in the advantaged bracket.

I have never taken money from a club but put plenty in at times.

But it takes all sorts to make the world go round and just look at the state it is in.

Regards.
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:01 pm

I'm also / was, very natural flyer. Open loft and very, very rare I went for any medical help. Well I vaccinated for Para as the ruling is.... because it is just that. I had a bad feed once about 4 / 5 years ago. Yes went to a very good Avian vet …. but was advice by him - what I already believed and left them to regain their health etc. Yes lost a few. Other than that could count on one hand if medicated or such used over a very long while - years.
Though I was entitled for free membership in the clubs I also always paid my dues etc.
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:10 pm

Just to clarify a point

I have never said that the method I used was the only one that gives success, just a possible alternative that I found was ideal for me gave the pigeons as near to, or better than, their natural life., and the pleasure we shared was immesurable.

Regards.


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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:22 pm

Have used the 'natural' system for years. Won with it many times. But next year, all going well, widowhood. Have to try it.
As you do not have pigeons now, I am surprised you are such a Crusader!! Umm..some religious group would love you!! LOL!!
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:28 pm

I am a believer, believe it or not, and it includes having thought for others which I have done in many ways.

I am also no angel having done things that I wish had not, but never with the intention of doing anyone harm.


With regard to our sport, I have not just become very concerned about it's future but 50 years ago I was, and expressed concern, at the manner it was going and made attempts to ensure it would be their for others to enjoy in the future and in a fair manner etc;

The pleasure the pigeons gave me from around eight years of age and the majority of the years since I feel is well worth attempting to give later generations the same opportunity, there are few reality activities for them to be engaged in.

Why should I not still try to do so?



Regards.
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:54 pm

BUT HOW

Another year has come and gone
Then exactly what have we done
The raptors kill and maim our birds
And all we hear are pointless words
All the costs keep going up
The commercial boys just say Shut Up.
Our losses increase more and more
Countless fanciers are feeling sore
The weather we can do nowt about
But many fanciers still shout out
When matters do not go their way
The ill informed have most to say
YBS and self inflicted illnesses abound
And no long term solutions can be found
We cannot travel back in time
Or everything would then be fine
We live in the here and now
Our sport must be saved but how?

THE ANSWER WILL NOT BE FOUND IN MAKING MONEY A SACRED COW

Regards,







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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:47 am

Misty. Beleive it or not. I an many others respect your views. We just agree to disagree on some issues.
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:20 am

You have every right to disagree, there is no one right all the time and I do consider others opinions, I just wish everyone would come together with some ideas, and have those ideas looked into in an attempt to stop the rot.

Regards.
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:30 am

I think ive more or less decided, I wont be putting my ybs on darkness next season, I`ll leave them natural and see how they perform........it cant be any worse I don't think. No
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PostSubject: Re: Darkness, Does it Make a Difference ?   Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:16 pm

David,
I know there has been problems with losses on a continual basis over the past few years but I believe this year has been a one off and unless the weather improves it will not be a good basis for making any future policies, I do not think any pigeon has been helped by the conditions.

But there is nothing wrong in trying every possible system until you find one that suits you and your feathered friends.


Regards.

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