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 Burgers, us and pigeons

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Daz
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PostSubject: Burgers, us and pigeons   Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:19 pm

When one considers how many bacteria./ viruses / fungi could hide in a 1/10 mm crack and that all chemical disinfectants don't work in the presence of organic matter, one comes to the conclusion that a flame is perhaps the best disinfectant. One just needs to watch that one doesn't burn down the loft lol.
Then again natural immunity from a sterile loft? Oxymoron, Corpoghraphy whatever. It never will happen. A complete impossibility and waste of money. The natural immunity is a must! However sometimes a helping hand may be beneficial.
To build immunity birds have to be exposed to the pathogens first. One can scrape a loft daily and never get rid of all the nasties. That is good for one can over sterilize the loft so as not not to build immunity.
The discovery of antibiotics more than 70 years ago initiated a period of drug innovation and implementation in human and animal health and agriculture. These discoveries were tempered in all cases by the emergence of resistant microbes1, 2. This history has been interpreted to mean that antibiotic resistance in pathogenic bacteria is a modern phenomenon; this view is reinforced by the fact that collections of microbes that predate the antibiotic era are highly susceptible to antibiotics3. Here we report targeted metagenomic analyses of rigorously authenticated ancient DNA from 30,000-year-old Beringian permafrost sediments and the identification of a highly diverse collection of genes encoding resistance to β-lactam, tetracycline and glycopeptide antibiotics. (Oxtetracycline was the only one once for Salmonella, may still be?)
Structure and function studies on the complete vancomycin resistance element VanA confirmed its similarity to modern variants. These results show conclusively that antibiotic resistance is a natural phenomenon that predates the modern selective pressure of clinical antibiotic use."
The microb always develops itself to resist antibiots to stays live. Has too obviously.
A week after grilling hamburgers in his backyard in November 2011, business consultant Kenneth Koehler became violently ill. He suffered stomach pains, diarrhea and nausea - and was rushed to the hospital emergency room.
Days later, his doctors told him that his burger was contaminated with Salmonella Typhimurium, a strain commonly found in ground beef.
But Koehler's salmonella was more dangerous than he realized. Records provided to Reuters by Koehler showed that the salmonella strain in the ground beef was resistant to nine types of antibiotics. Three of the antibiotics that didn't work were cephalosporins, including ceftriaxone, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention records.
Neither Koehler, 56, nor his doctors know for certain whether ceftiofur had been administered to any of the cows whose meat was contaminated. But they knew the drugs that his salmonella strain were resisting. That's because he was among the last of 19 people from seven states sickened in the outbreak, according to Koehler and the CDC records.
Based on the CDC's testing of the salmonella strain, Koehler said, his doctors already determined ceftriaxone wouldn't work. Instead, they prescribed ciprofloxacin, a powerful antibiotic in a different drug category. In humans, about 3 percent of all salmonella samples tested in 2012 by the CDC were resistant to ceftriaxone.
'They went directly to cipro,' Koehler said of his doctors. 'To put it bluntly, this salmonella really kicked my butt.'
Investigators for the Maine branch of the CDC tested the leftover beef in Koehler's freezer. The tests showed the source of his salmonella was ground beef bought at a supermarket.
Koehler was fortunate. He was treated and released the same day. Eight other people with ceftriaxone-resistant salmonella were hospitalized in the same outbreak, according to the CDC records.
One thing I have found by those that sell hamburgers is that the customer is often asked 'How do you want your hamburger done?' They don't seem to understand that there is really only one SAFE way to cook hamburgers - and that is THOROUGHLY. At home, proper cooking of hamburgers or tenderized steak means that there should not be any pink in the centre of the meat if it is cooked thoroughly. Cutting boards, utensils need to be disinfected afterward, etc.. It's all common sense, not rocket science.
Re: Antibiotic resistance in bacteria, for many years I've wondered if one approach could be to retire specific antibiotics from use as soon as possible when bacterial resistance begins to develop, and store these antibiotics (and/or the moulds that produced them originally) in bio-secure facilities. For years if necessary. Then, as the newer generations of antibiotics start to fail because of bacterial resistance, test these stored antibiotics to determine if they might be as effective as they were originally. Just a thought.

For fanciers I'd suggest a few things: As much as possible, avoid the use of antibiotics, and other treatments in pigeons. Instead try to develop strong natural resistance whenever possible. When treatment is actually proved to be needed, use the full recommended dose for the full recommended time. Avoid the so-called preventive treatments that too many fanciers use or recommend just before the breeding and racing seasons. Why preventively treat a condition that may not even exist in your birds? This approach just knocks out the billions of protective bacteria in the digestive system. The gut needs them!

Now take Amoxicillin. What is really the right prescribe dosage? It's a question for which there is not an easy answer. It depends what you want to kill with it for starters. (If you know!) Then how resistant these bacteria are to the amoxicillin. Once you know this (Well what percentage of Vets, let alone fanciers know that?) you will need to know how much water the birds drink at this time of year in your loft. That's why many fanciers give medication over their feed nowadays.
The following is therefore based on many assumptions: Let's assume that your birds are not feeding youngsters and let us assume that each bird drinks 50 ml water per day. (80 birds drink 1 gallon in 1 day) (Obviously different quota for different birds due to health, energy or stress, breeding and the individuality etc, of the bird. So how can there be a rule of the thumb! Further lets assume that the bacteria you want to kill are susceptible when exposed to 20 mg amoxicillin per bird per day. (1600 mg added to 1 gallon) - (Again the variations and possibilities are endless) After water is added to the bottle of amoxicillin how many ml would this bottle have now? (There are various formulations of this antibiotic) Gosh and some treat blind or ask a mate, or post on a site for help lol.
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fieldwalker
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PostSubject: Re: Burgers, us and pigeons   Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:32 pm

Il read that later when im home...to much to read on my phone study
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MISTY
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PostSubject: Re: Burgers, us and pigeons   Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:52 pm

The best way for any fancier is to forget all the jargon regarding the numerous possible diseases and concentrate on having healthy pigeons that do not need constant treatment.

Every disease and problem with our pigeons has a cause, do away with the cause and you do not need all the mumbo jumbo.

Regards.
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PostSubject: Re: Burgers, us and pigeons   Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:25 pm

Interesting,but I don't believe any consistantly successful fancier doesn't treat at some stage of the season.
It might be possible to build immunity so there not clinically ill but is that enough to stop a pigeon performing at its very best? A bit of a cold,a heavy cold or no cold.....
Replace "cold" with any ailment you want.
Not saying treat blind and not saying don't treat at all....saying I don't know study
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PostSubject: Re: Burgers, us and pigeons   Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:09 pm

I can only go by my own experience, in the beginning I had the same problems as other fanciers of the time.

I changed from treating to letting the pigeons either recover or go under.

I used garlc every day after reading about the Roman soldiers having to eat a clove a day, I used lime because of it's quality in dealing with many possible problems, and deep litter lime based that kept the droppings and the loft dry.

No additives at all.

I had very little health problems after the initial changes to the above from what many fanciers were doing and having various problems.

I could take any pigeon from the loft clean it's feet and put it in a show in show condition.

I wrote about this many years ago in the BHW but you always get those who disagree but they usually have all the problems.

The worst thing that ever happened was when studs started paying silly prices for pigeons that they had to keep healthy??? because of the price paid and then sell generations of artificial;y treated young that many performace pigeons were four or five generations back.

Of course some would turn out rasonable but at what cost overall.

Regards.
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Daz
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PostSubject: Re: Burgers, us and pigeons   Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:35 pm

1st class post Misty. I did the same. Deep litter with lime. Ok I admit I still changed the litter fairly often. BUT left a lot of dropping be.
No harm in dry droppings. Indeed just look at them wild ones that build more over time in the fields shed etc. Fine healthy youngsters reared.
I left my pigeons gain their own immunity too. Yes sometimes I thought they might not make it... but did. But the youngsters then have that immunity bred in them.
I wanted pigeons with good immunity and constitutions. You have more chance to pee in the Queens ear from 50 yard in a head wind that get that from any bottle , tablets etc.
I often say that Garlic is to pevention, and blood flow, what Penecillion is to afterwards.
But prevention is worth so many times more it is unvelievacle.
Introduce once some good youngsters from a very good flyer - always looking for an out cross. Come 2 years I never had one in the loft. Tests I gave all the birds they failed miserablely. Only bred a few as yearlings.... went 150 miles first time in basket. Next season they had deceased or been lost! I simplely can't understand why I would spend time, effert and money trying to give them something that they weren't capable off. For every loft has it's own ailments. The birds have to get a dose to get over to be able to become immuned. They couldn't hack it. Molly coddled and sent short inland races when weather forcasr for week - end is good, doesn't even LET Mr Basket do his job.
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PostSubject: Re: Burgers, us and pigeons   Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:07 am

fieldwalker wrote:
Interesting,but I don't believe any consistantly successful fancier doesn't treat at some stage of the season.
It might be possible to build immunity so there not clinically ill but is that enough to stop a pigeon performing at its very best? A bit of a cold,a heavy cold or no cold.....
Replace "cold" with any ailment you want.
Not saying treat blind and not saying don't treat at all....saying I don't know study
I agree with that. Just stands to reason. One has a good team racing and one gets a pigeon off colour healthwise then the fancier will either treat it or hold it back. If a person is going for ace bird, ace loft or whatever they will if need be treat. Flock usually. Easier, covers all aspects. I do not have the problem so just assuming here. It is a money game for some. Prestige thing for others. If one has to send many birds to a race to cover variations in flight, health etc then more power to them. The big shippers prop up the usual small number of birds shipped. Days of a few birds per person are gone. If one is looking for wins etc,.
Doom and gloom seems to be a common thread on here. Some excellent posts by Daz and Misty extoll the virtues of racing birds in a scenario of good company, However, posting on here will not change the present day scenario. It MAY change peoples minds if posted on a more public site accessible by non pigeon fanciers. Pet sites?
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Daz
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PostSubject: Re: Burgers, us and pigeons   Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:54 am

Of course Misty and I know we will changes things not a jot. But give food for thought.
For example I get quite a P.Ms regards somethings I've written or debated. I'm sure the same is with Misty.
Fear factor plays a big part too as to 'What others do'! One reads marvellous adverts statinng all you do is good! BUT you need this and such and such like SO AND SO USES TO WIN!
Simple reality is that many birds don't improve a jot.
So a Nmae advertises a product. Club members ssay you MUST try such and such LIKE I do etc.
So many just follow along.
Have a thought. Bacteria in the gut is a must! Treat to kill certain ones means you kill the good with the so - called bad. they must have a use. Like Canker. a bird MUST have some in the system BECUASE it protects from other Cankers. Treatment means you leave the door open to a nother strain. Also when the Canker becomes immuned, it strengthens it's self etc.
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MISTY
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PostSubject: Re: Burgers, us and pigeons   Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:21 am

That is all one can do Daz, give a helping hand and suggest that matters could possibly be changed for the better whenever possible.


Over the years I have had numerous letters regarding our sport, some that could make you cry, others make you laugh and others unbelievable, regarding what some fanciers are capable of.

But you would need a magic wand to give a reasonable answer to many.


One thing no fancier could dispute is that I have never ever refused to help anyone that it has been in my power to do so, friend of foe.


Regards.
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