Y/b flies 1205 km and from 1085

Prange: was criticized saying 'Young birds could fly from Barcelona'

Guenter Prange was criticized when he said the above but this young bird proves him right. This young bird of 2019 got a prize from 1205 km and from 1085 km in another race in 2019.
I flew young birds 500 miles all but 20 miles.
'Prince' Jackson, over a hundred years ago was getting yearlings - in real good times'.

As I've often stated, on here and else where, I truly believe the molly coddling of our birds and restrictions has more than dampened their ability and merit. Too many paper bag winner full of too much rubbish, that prop up their' looks abound.

All great and good strains are, and have been created from proven distance and hard day races. Yes the same birds that would win from 50 miles to 600 miles.
We do our feathered friends a disservice!

You can take any species you like including the human kind.

In fact humans are a good example.

How many humans can complete a marathon in race time of the billions that have lived?

How many can run a mile a minute.

Of those that can is there any way in which you could identify them by either parentage or looks, or physical build.

The answer is NO and exactly the same applies to our feathered friends and every other species, that is to enable them to cope with certain circumstances that may arise, the survival of the fittest, should be the most able to deal with a
problem.

Of course a young pigeon will fly as far as its constitution will allow all things being equal, however, in extreme cases they are freaks of nature. and crop up from many different situations that no one can reasonably predict.

There is more THEORIES with no foundation in our sport than any other.

What is in your loft and the extent to which you enjoy them is what matters.

Regards.

Can't agree with you post there Misty.
A cheetah will run top speed of about 57 M.P.H.
Sharks etc. etc. Bee work … Its nature, and as such all life forms have equal ability, nigh all the same... Now of course one might say 'What about a horse' etc. Yes when raced, one may find a little differences, but then that revolves arounds mankind.
A grey hound wins the 'Grey Hound derby... the second isn't much behind,, interferes, trap draws etc all make a difference. As I said last week on here, and often do, many a time the best pigeon in the race seldom wins! Location, wind etc, all play apart, as does systems. Off days not 100% … But the rabbit is, like the fox. Very, very little in nature is one 100% and one 98% or even 80%.

Would agree your right to disagree Daz.

If we all thought the same what would be the point in discussing anything. Daz?

But feel you have missed my point maybe my fault for not putting it in a proper manner.

I have often pointed out the example of food shortage in the bad winters when birds have to travel miles for their food.

If there is only a small quantity of food then the ones that get their first will eat it, the slow ones eventually die of starvation.

Come the good times the survivors will have all kinds of genes including those of the slow pigeons that died and eventually the status quo will return.

The same applies in one way or another to ALL LIFE.

Because one young bird flies many miles and others cannot, the former is a fluke and flukes of all kinds come from all kinds of situations.

As I tried to explain, take humans and sport, the best in any sport come from numerous different situations, a world champions relatives both previous and after may not be able to even participate in the sport involved.

If there was a reasonable way in which to predict the performance and breeding qualities without trial and error there would not be thousands of pigeons bred each year, and thousand and millions lost over a short period, racing is used to pick out the flukes of nature.

If racing pigeons was not problematic it would not be so interesting.

Regards.

Daz wrote:

Prange: was criticized saying 'Young birds could fly from Barcelona'

Guenter Prange was criticized when he said the above but this young bird proves him right. This young bird of 2019 got a prize from 1205 km and from 1085 km in another race in 2019.
I flew young birds 500 miles all but 20 miles.
'Prince' Jackson, over a hundred years ago was getting yearlings - in real good times'.

As I've often stated, on here and else where, I truly believe the molly coddling of our birds and restrictions has more than dampened their ability and merit. Too many paper bag winner full of too much rubbish, that prop up their' looks abound.

All great and good strains are, and have been created from proven distance and hard day races. Yes the same birds that would win from 50 miles to 600 miles.
We do our feathered friends a disservice!

If there is anything     in a pigeon sense  that makes me absolutely piss myself   ing, it's this subject matter on how far one should send babies/young birds etc. 600/700 miles is fair game & normal down here for young birds on average & it has to be a real bad one for the old birds up against them to come out on top at the end of the day. Still remember the day a novice type & a icon took the birds up to the first 700 mile race in a local sense to blaze new territory & stretch the boundary's into the unknown factor, because a small group of people wanted a challenge in a pigeon sense. 700 miles one way       become 900 odd miles because half the country was in flood I'm & the extra 200 odd miles was all on bumpy country type roads, filled with pot holes & built like corregated type metal roofing. End of the story it was a bit of a disaster all things considered, but one must start some where no matter what one may just set out to achieve I suggest .

Yes bad food, etc. etc. Misty, poor or not understood management or the very 'What is What'.
In nature. nature looks after it's own health wise. It is when controlled via mankind that discrepancies and ill towards take hold.

Daz wrote:

Yes bad food, etc. etc. Misty, poor or not understood management or the very 'What is What'.
In nature. nature looks after it's own health wise. It is when controlled via mankind that discrepancies and ill towards take hold.

Yes but a new dawn arises there for your lot Daz it appears. Brexit hits town etc tomorrow Strange thing is come the end & after all the early drama the vote was 600 odd for & 20 odd against apparently after Boris got his way in the end .
*****

With pigeons, mate the best to the best and hope for the best.

halcanada80 wrote:

With pigeons, mate the best to the best and hope for the best.

Which then means Worst to the worst eh!

Mind many a true champs/ great birds have been born from the worst, strays and what not.

I respect everyones opinions. But each to their own. What appears to work for me is the best performers to best performers. I assume over time they are basically all related. My reds are. Whites will have to see. Have introduced few odd cocks. However only one gave me a good one. 1 out of many bred. I still breed dummies but much less so now than before.

There is NO sure way to predict how to breed the best pigeons.

No one knows the genes potential of any pigeon.

If fanciers had discussed it as I did with one of the best known breeders of millions of pigeons you would know that the winning genes often skip many generations from the actual winners and they are the ones to buy back.

If there was a certain or even reasonable means of determining the breeding potential then the studs would only be in business ONE YEAR.

As Daz, says just consider where many of the very best pigeons originated and you will see, from every possible combination.

Regards.

Sorry if you found my post offensive Hal. Certainly not meant I can you assure you.
I often look and read - well did - and feel that pop Jannsen, Beusseart and Masserella  were top stock men. Later a few spring to mind. Yes they certainly had, have an affinity in their makes.
All bred from proven distance and hard day racers... though Jannsen  Senior didn't like the those races, but excelled at the shorter distances. Nor any close breeding allowed... Or tolerate the Widowerhood systems. Beusseart  could simple read the form book and mate pigeons, not even his, that lived 100's of miles away from each other.
Yes all had the likes and quims, and adages and 'Must Do /have / be's

Daz wrote:

Sorry if you found my post offensive Hal. Certainly meant in that I can you assure you.
I often look and read - well did - and feel that pop Jannsen, Beusseart and Masserella  were top stock men. Later a few spring to mind. Yes they certainly had, have an affinity in their makes.
All bred from proven distance and hard day racers... though Jannsen  Senior didn't like the those races, but excelled at the shorter distances. Nor any close breeding allowed... Or tolerate the Widowerhood systems. Beusseart  could simple read the form book and mate pigeons, not even his, that lived 100's of miles away from each other.
Yes all had the likes and quims, and adages and 'Must Do /have / be's

No one here should feel offended as such I suggest it's just not our way on our forum from my perspective . The language gap maybe, may just put a strain at times here in how ones post is interpreted by others at times but we all in different ways have a love of/for our pigeons on average I would suggest .

Very True Knackered. Hal meant to say 'Not meant to' lol

Daz wrote:

Very True Knackered. Hal meant to say 'Not meant to' lol

Maybe so Does thou at times, become rather confusing here etc I feel, when old folk types        talk old folk talk from my perspective as such in a strange waffle type manner Daz .

I am not offended. Take a look at the big selling 'families'. Inbred to a degree. Van Loon. Des Mathys Houbens etc,. Careful blend of performance pigeons. On average they breed more good than bad birds. Those folk have a reputation for winning. They would have been out of business years ago if it was otherwise.

Hal, isn't it that Double G/c etc. sale for a far better price. the culls that they are selling are mainly just that! Culls!
Off course via the sheer numbers there maybe a good un bred … but then again false pedigrees sale for more.
Not say ALL are not to be trusted... mostly those that don't advertise I would say.
If one looks at the Janssen story and the great depths/ money and patience the old man and family took to buy in, but main try//swap You won't find even a near relation breeding.
Same as the names mentioned. Yes once only a father/ daughter etc. breeding - if daughter had flown well. Then out crossed straight away. Blood for breeding, outcross for flying.
'aper doesn't fly, but paper sales' eh!

Daz. Agree basically, But jusy going by my own experience. One outcross mixes genetis for generations. Better if I had said relatives.