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Oldstrain/Darren`s Winner of winners. 2012.
From Fed Topper to Master Chef
The N.E.H.U race from Melton Mowbray 21/4/2012 was won by Peel bros of South Shields, they took 1st club 1st fed, also taking 2nd and 4th club and 15 of the 25 birds clocked in the club......well done Peel brothers.
John Gibbs young pied/grizzle winner.
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 TOTALLY STUMPED?????

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Rudderfett
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PostSubject: TOTALLY STUMPED?????   Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:13 am

I have to admit over the last few weeks I have been looking on various websites which have all looked great, experts in genetics who seem credible and I have been fascinated and enjoyed looking and learning.

The reason I have been doing this is because in a small section I have a slate hen and a dark chequer cock paired, and first nest 2 reds, then a mealy???
This threw me a bit as not being totally uneducated about genetics, thought this was IMPOSSIBLE, after looking on the sites and asking experts I am told it basically is impossible.

There are 2 red cocks in the section so the hen has obviously been going elsewhere to fill her eggs, why she would do this is also a mystery as she is settled with her cock and I have seen him tread her.

Today my faith in the experts has been truly SHATTERED, They say the reasons behind their opinions is simple, you cannot breed a dominant colour which is stronger than the parents. Dominant colours are red, and Grizzle.

So simply 2 chequers or 2 blues cannot breed a colour like red or grizzle as they are more dominant than they are, and every pedigree I have looked at confirms this.
Because there seems to be an unbroken line of red and grizzle in families I have which shows this to be true, so all my reds have at least 1 parent of red, and all my grizzles have at least 1 grizzle parent and so it continues.

However this all changed today, I have just bred a grizzle from a chequer and a blue and that is 100 % correct, the section has no colours in it other than blues, and chequers so it is impossible for another cock to be the father unless he is also a chequer or blue????
The section has no whites, reds, mealies, slates or any strange colour which could mask a grizzle mutation, just blues and chequers???

So what the hell has happened this year with my birds I have kept pigeons a long time and have never seen this, so maybe my reds are from the true parents in the other section and the experts are wrong??

Any thoughts..?
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barnie
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PostSubject: Re: TOTALLY STUMPED?????   Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:57 am

Are the young reds , mealy, true reds or schalie type red? I ask because I had a pencil cock and dark hen always bred blues or darks then one nest they bred pair of dirty red coloured ybs probably throw back to the meuleman in parents. As it happened they didnt get to first race, rubbish but although I didnt look at genetics in depth it was still a surprise when they chucked an unusual colour.
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Rudderfett
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PostSubject: Re: TOTALLY STUMPED?????   Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:21 am

Hi barney, thanks for that but the meulemans resessive reds are different any way to anty other reds as they are blue chequers really altered by mutation and it has to be on both sides to get it. These are the ash red dominant type not resessive type.
Thanks
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Rudderfett
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PostSubject: Re: TOTALLY STUMPED?????   Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:23 am

I think the red puzzle has been solved, but what about a grizzle from blue and chequer?? Anyone seen this before? I suppose as all pigeons originate from the blue stock dove I suppose the grizzle had to come from somewhere in the beginning and from 2 blues?
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GRIZZLECOCK
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PostSubject: Re: TOTALLY STUMPED?????   Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:39 am

Rudderfett wrote:
I have to admit over the last few weeks I have been looking on various websites which have all looked great, experts in genetics who seem credible and I have been fascinated and enjoyed looking and learning.

The reason I have been doing this is because in a small section I have a slate hen and a dark chequer cock paired, and first nest 2 reds, then a mealy???
This threw me a bit as not being totally uneducated about genetics, thought this was IMPOSSIBLE, after looking on the sites and asking experts I am told it basically is impossible.

There are 2 red cocks in the section so the hen has obviously been going elsewhere to fill her eggs, why she would do this is also a mystery as she is settled with her cock and I have seen him tread her.

Today my faith in the experts has been truly SHATTERED, They say the reasons behind their opinions is simple, you cannot breed a dominant colour which is stronger than the parents. Dominant colours are red, and  Grizzle.

So simply 2 chequers or 2 blues cannot breed a colour like red or grizzle as they are more dominant than they are, and every pedigree I have looked at confirms this.
Because there seems to be an unbroken line of red and grizzle in families I have which shows this to be true, so all my reds have at least 1 parent of red, and all my grizzles have at least 1 grizzle parent and so it continues.

However this all changed today, I have just bred a grizzle from a chequer and a blue and that is 100 % correct, the section has no colours in it other than blues, and chequers so it is impossible for another cock to be the father unless he is also a chequer or blue????
The section has no whites, reds, mealies, slates or any strange colour which could mask a grizzle mutation, just blues and chequers???

So what the hell has happened this year with my birds I have kept pigeons a long time and have never seen this, so maybe my reds are from the true parents in the other section and the experts are wrong??

Any thoughts..?
Most important mr Rudderfelt..."Experts" built the Titanic...its said they also sent man to the moon..lol
remember grizzle..tigergrizzel, undergrizzle,certainly are not a colour....and 2 blues can bred white grizzles although its better for strength of colour if they are impure ie..bred from ch themselves....as you all know i am never ever wrong Laughing  Laughing  Wink  Shocked so do you think its about time you all started to call me an expert.. with thanks




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Rudderfett
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PostSubject: Re: TOTALLY STUMPED?????   Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:31 pm

lol! lol! lol! lol! 
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GRIZZLECOCK
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PostSubject: Re: TOTALLY STUMPED?????   Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:26 pm

Rudderfett wrote:
lol! lol! lol! lol! 

Correct lol
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fletch
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PostSubject: Re: TOTALLY STUMPED?????   Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:21 pm

surely anything is possible with breeding colours we had a few years ago, two blues bred a opel chequer, nothing in this colour been in the loft for years, but checking the old books it came through the mothers side generations back, and i mean about 6 generations back,
so possibly it could be a throwback from generations down the line the answer to your question,
i know this and that should not happen but occasionally it does
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peel bros
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PostSubject: Re: TOTALLY STUMPED?????   Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:04 pm

i have 2 cw paired together and they have bred a grissel,can this be correct also as in all the years i,ve had pigeons this has never happened to me
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edgie
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PostSubject: Re: TOTALLY STUMPED?????   Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:27 pm

peel bros wrote:
i have 2 cw paired together and they have bred a grissel,can this be correct also as in all the years i,ve had pigeons this has never happened to me
grizzle is a dominant colour once introduced in to the family it will re-apear from time to time.
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peel bros
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PostSubject: Re: TOTALLY STUMPED?????   Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:30 pm

ah right ,thanks
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D J LOFTS
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PostSubject: Re: TOTALLY STUMPED?????   Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:00 pm

this year we had a cheq c and a cheq w h bred a black yb
and a blue c and a cheq h bred a black and schalie in the same nest
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Don Webb
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PostSubject: Re: TOTALLY STUMPED?????   Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:13 pm

fletch wrote:
surely  anything is possible with breeding colours we had a few years ago, two blues bred a opel chequer, nothing in this colour been in the loft for years, but checking the old books it came through the mothers side generations back, and i mean about 6 generations back,
so possibly it could be a throwback from generations  down the line the answer to your question,
i know this and that should not happen but occasionally it does

I will agree 100% Lee

The colour in question has to be a throw back within the breed
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