Weak Back Theory

We have had quite a few comments regarding this 'Tail up' thing. But I wanted to get a wider view on the subject.

This is why I am posting it again under a different title. I hope this in not too boring.

I understand now, that some people say it is a sign of a 'Weak Back'.

What I want to know now is:- Why does a bird holding its tail in a 'Upward' position mean it has a weak back. Where is the logical, physiological or anatomical reasoning behind that theory?

I would have thought - logically, it takes more effort on the part of the pigeon, to hold its tail UP, than it does to let it droop down. But people think that a 'Downward' facing tail is good!

Does anyone have real proof that:-

1. A bird with its tail UP has a weak back.

2. What significance does a weak back have on the pigeon?

AND - What is a 'Weak Back' anyway.

It is a anatomical fact, that, 35% of the total body weight of a pigeon is due to its Pectoralis and Supracoracoideus muscles. The former pull the wings down and the latter pull the wings up. There is no physiological reason why the muscles of the back, get involved to any great extent when the bird is flying.

Or are we saying that if a bird flies with its tail UP, it will cause more 'Drag'. If that is the case, then aerodynamically, if the tail is up, that would lift the bird's body up in relation to its flight path and cause more drag.

This is a little complicated, I know, but sometimes the truth is complicated.

There are a LOT of 'Old Wives tales' in pigeons, and I wonder if this tail up, thing is just another one of them.

Over to you guys now!

Phil

The way I see it is that to have a weak back it is nothing to do with mucile.but to do with the thickness of feather on its rump and if a pigeon holds its tail up then it must be unballanced and will not perform as it should ?

on your original post about the subject you mentioned a slight lift upwardly and downwardly in ybs being handled which is nothing in my eyes ...but a big upward lift in the tail then i am with edgie on that one ...wording on replies is crucial to what you are trying to put across and can often be misunderstood if its not correct ....i hate to see a vertical tail and have had a few but they soon disappear which is the best pointer that they dont make good racers

oldstrain wrote:

on your original post about the subject you mentioned a slight lift upwardly and downwardly in ybs being handled which is nothing in my eyes ...but a big upward lift in the tail then i am with edgie on that one ...wording on replies is crucial to what you are trying to put across and can often be misunderstood if its not correct ....i hate to see a vertical tail and have had a few but they soon disappear which is the best pointer that they dont make good racers

Again Darren, you make an excellent point, re Wording. And I think everyone is missing my point. which is:-

Where is the proof that a tail held up, means the bird has a weak back - AND - what, in real terms, has a weak back got to do with the bird being good or not. Not just someones 'Theory' but FACTS please.

I think if a bird flew with it's tail up (or not parallel to its body) it would be wheedled out by training, if not definitely basketing.

Phil

yes forget theories if you selected on every theory how many birds would be left in the loft the basket theory and first feet on the trap theory are best atb phil

We all think first feet through the trap is good but.have a look at your old birds can you find one with a weak back.I dought it the basket or man sorted the problem .so why risk paying courtiers to bring crap back .?

deep keel,weak back,throat,wing, where do you draw the line that's my point yes if something is blatant theirs no other way but most back yard fanciers have to go with what they got what they have bred

But surely if you are more selective you will breed better quality birds

edgie wrote:

But surely if you are more selective you will breed better quality birds

yes i agree with you but even the best breed crap and not all that glitters is gold ...i suppose its all about what you want out of the hobbie and what you want to achieve ...theirs no doubt sending 1 exceptional bird is better than sending 6 average ones no doubt at all ...i dont keep many birds and indeed have been selective with my breeders which are all ex-racers but unfortunately never got chance to breed from them this year due to having new loft erected later than scheduled but will be interesting next year as these have been selected with a criteria ...but whats in their heart is the main thing

ive found pigeons who have the tail up tend to be looser around the base of the tail, less feathering and no body to it....whereas the tail down tends to have more body/thickness around the base of the tail, and more feathering which extends further down the tail feathers.

Would not buy any weak backed birds at all tail must go out straight or down but ifi breed a youngster like that it will have every chance like all the others

edgie wrote:

The way I see it is that to have a weak back it is nothing to do with mucile.but to do with the thickness of feather on its rump and if a pigeon holds its tail up then it must be unballanced and will not perform as it should ?

Spot on Boss

markevans wrote:

Would not buy any weak backed birds at all tail must go out straight or down but ifi breed a youngster like that it will have every chance like all the others

I would agree 110% Mark as youngsters are still maturing and if they are there at the end of the season and moult out good then do your selecting and if it still has

the tail pointing up then sorry it would have to go

markevans wrote:

Would not buy any weak backed birds at all tail must go out straight or down but ifi breed a youngster like that it will have every chance like all the others

No reason for anyone to buy a weak back type pigeon as such Mark . Basically on a hiding to nothing type thing from my perspective but as you say, if one finds one or two in there race team just put them to the test along with the others. Perfection is rarely found in the average type loft I suspect & one only has to look at the continual sales of rings each year to come to that conclusion .

yes I agree with that, although I`d be reluctant to buy one, it would be treated exactly the same as all the rest of the young birds and be raced regardless, I dare say some will race ok and probably win on their day.