Myths of the unknown

These are some of the things, beliefs, that I can't understand how fanciers spout as some kind of truths..
Breaking points. Over crowding. Motivation. Training. Land recognition. Homing by Magnetic field, colour. Smell! Even the thesis now by some that 'They follow the motor ways' How the All took on board as nigh facts. Yes often seen.
Egyptians and romans message pigeon managed that I'll never know, and much more. Mind the Roman's road s were in a straight line, so that might be what learned them to 'Go straight by.
However another fact is, and proven, that pigeons don't fly in a direct line. Yes i know we some time swoop over head hell bent racing as in a direct line.
The actually zig - zag in a arc. Like the bow.
Which way, and how much depends of course on the strengh of the wind.
the other garbage - as far as I am concerned is that nonesens that all you need to beat those in the east and westerly wind, is to make your birds better and fitter! as if those in the East haven't done that to theirs.
Or is it that All good flyers strangely live on the East side of the country, county or town etc. Still to see a wary fancier move his loft to the West of the county town, or country.

mmm, interesting post daz, regards to magnetic fields and following the motorways etc, ive never took any notice of this, but over crowding I would have thought, was something we needed to avoid ......breaking point, I thought, was a good idea in theory, but as we never know which way a pigeon goes to get back home, realised it couldn't be relied upon to gain some advantage.

your comments are food for thought .

David wrote:

mmm, interesting post daz, regards to magnetic fields and following the motorways etc, ive never took any notice of this, but over crowding I would have thought, was something we needed to avoid ......breaking point, I thought, was a good idea in theory, but as we never know which way a pigeon goes to get back home, realised it couldn't be relied upon to gain some advantage.

your comments are food for thought .

I liked the east west scenario David     Daz mentioned etc. Here the cowboys go North (like dinosaur's) & all the hero types go South as such & they tell us it has nothing to do with having an advantage come race day .

First of as its still a complete mystery how a pigeon finds it way home, perhaps one should look at what has happened and things of the past proven.

Youngsters go ranging. Does one think, believe that they pop down town centre for a take away! Off course not. They as we all know fly with a love and zest, the sheer enjoyment. their speed will be at least an average of 35 -40 MPH. Depending on wind direction and strength.
They range over several days and more... going any thing from 3 to 8 hours. -- Also as the older generation will tell you they used to climb so high that they were no more than specks in the sky, or disappear. 4 hours would be at least 160 miles. they circle and home over 60 miles or more at least. - I, and many other old timers used to take them after they stopped ranging to a train or lorry and let their youngster go up with the race birds. Ours was Wickstead Park - or Thrapston Railway. Sheffield / Barnsley feds etc.
Some would mix and head straight home. Often many joined up and went with them. Some coming back hours later, or next day even … time of lib depending too and weather.
Yet still many take the birds 3 - 5 miles in stages... often dropping some as they go on!
If a pigeon can fly 20 miles home it will do 50 miles. If it can do 50 miles, then depending of system and feed it will do any where within reason.
Around the loft a circle would be at least 440 yards of more (a quarter of a mile).
So as we don't know we can't teach them a thing. BUT they obviously don't get lost.
My personal theory here that we don't loose birds in as much as they just don't want to come back. Yes of course weather / hard days etc. take a big bearing. Many pigeons have two lofts which I will tell about some time later.
But silly people in the East, or not so silly, would have you believe that location / wind doesn't make a difference, But then they would.

Well let's start with Breaking points. many say go 10 miles to the east and 20 - 30 miles up the road. Why? Only one answer to why and that is because. They subconsciously accept that the pigeon A. is hamper, or at best annoyed at the wind blowing them of course. You have all heard it said as such 'I always know when I have a 'Good Un' they come over them there between those chimneys.. or over that tree' . OR 'They were of line' etc. In reality it simply means where the wind took them. - As for drag, well most are at the start of headin in the same direction. The ones most wanting home most break earlier and head home, in 1 to 10 batches etc.

Now let's say you are flying a 90 race North to South. The breaking point many say is where they head for first - Couldn't make it - Indeed from lib that is first point of call for a bird on line.
But the wind is Easterly! Force 8 say. the Arc is, and will be to the West, fact. Who would be happy if their bird battles on over the breaking point first then home … No one.
Was told and believe the F.M B. is all important.
Like wise the three C's. I have since added two more C's so now it's the 5 C's.
Now train from the points of the circle, it is good if training.

A fellow fancier, a good flyer to boot, moved to Grantham. I met him a few years later where I use to get the Pigeon food / supplies. He still went there.
He asked how and what as we chatted. Smiled when I just went into the loft and looked at the birds as to what to send. First North basket, second pigeon South and so on. He asked 'didn't I bother which way they went'!
'[No of course not' said I. 'makes no difference'. 'Ah' he smiled 'Those are the birds you want to keep'. I smiled and said nothing ... Because if they didn't - or as some would say 'Couldn't do that, then they weren't in my loft!

No such thing as over crowding. In Canada- ask Hal, the government ruling is BY A FOOT. So it's Length x breadth BY x height equal's squared footage. Each bird must have a square foot.
First thing in illness the quicker a virus will go through the birds. Cleansed all at once instead of a continuation.
Pigeons love to flock together. It's their name. It gives comfort and warmth. The highest bird in the pecking order is usually the best conditioned bird. They GAIN the first C. contentment.
You never see a pigeon move away to nest. Yes the hens youngster move when older to stop incest breeding. Over than that they nigh nest on each others.

I believe Too much room ruins any natural 'Pecking Order' so important to the nature of our pigeons for a starter, plus the 'Jealousy element is no longer prevalent. etc. etc. and much more.

I was asked by Barry Andrews, the fed president at the time if I would go and see a recently widowed lady in Roade. I said I would, but could at the moment other priorities were in place. He said in a polite huff. Never mind I'll get someone else I thought ... bla bla..'.
So a certain Stu whiskin went.
Met the lady and all she wanted was the birds removed, nor ever coming home as it was disheartening, to say the least.
her husband fancier hadn't raced for a few years with illness and one thing or another.
Stu will tell the same to anyone. I went in this de-crapped mournful twin shed of a loft. they were two open holes.
Stacks of perches and the droppings must have been a foot high. You couldn't see the perches they were 5 inches higher or so with droppings and the birds crouched on them. He had, and hasn't since seen as many birds in such a small space.
He went out and told the lady he would dispose of them the next day. said to me I only had a couple of bin liners.
Next day he went with a mate who was his pigeon partner late of the evening.
He blocked up the open holes / so-called traps.
Went in and took the first bird on the highest perch. 'Gosh' what a beauty! He went outside to study it. Went in and another had taken that perch! What a cracker etc. He will tell you every time I removed a bird from that perch another took over it. He says he has never ever seen pigeons in better condition!!!

Heartbreaking to fill the liners.

Saw the same when I was a lad, In a farmers field was an ole cow barn. the ceiling had caved in and my mate who worked for the farmer was told to go and sort it out etc. It was one mass of pigeons and droppings. The youngster in the nest mad of dropping was in mint condition The droppings had become so heavy that the loft had caved in. Not the roof. Ever pigeon was a dream to look at, hold etc.
Some strays etc. and the young of the strays I guess. Birds that would grace any loft. I left my mate to it. the shed was also knocked down.

A farmer in Poiton had an old run-down shack full of pigeons in a field. Open loft etc.
He would get his farm hands once every 2 -3 years to clean it out. Otherwise, it was never touched. The farmer would close the traps night before basketing. Go in and see which ones were winking and dancing. Any eyeliner on and put a dozen or so in the basket and raced. He excelled. Grew old and gave the birds away .. sadly he had the loft knocked down to prevent any coming back ... Oh!

dropping give good heat. No problem as long as they are dry!

Now, will post up later, the Magnetic Field has no influences whatsoever. Nor the sun.

In Canada, before Hal got there from the 'Monkey Hanging' town, pigeons were flown at night time during the war years. The British were quite good and successful too.
However the best were the Canadian corps.
They would take pigeons up, like we did, 5000ft in planes. Placed in paper bags they were released 2-300 miles in the pitch dark in the dead of night and arrive as quick as in day time.

Kipps Brothers had 17 Drop from Barcelona in 20 minutes. Past one O'clock in the morning, which he won. The Barcelona King - so named after beat the Barcelona Master for the first and only ever time.

Daz wrote:

First of as its still a complete mystery how a pigeon finds it way home, perhaps one should look at what has happened and things of the past proven.

Youngsters go ranging. Does one think, believe that they pop down town centre for a take away! Off course not. They as we all know fly with a love and zest, the sheer enjoyment. their speed will be at least an average of 35 -40 MPH. Depending on wind direction and strength.
They range over several days and more... going any thing from 3 to 8 hours. -- Also as the older generation will tell you they used to climb so high that they were no more than specks in the sky, or disappear.  4 hours would be at least 160 miles. they circle and home over 60 miles or more at least.  - I, and many other old timers used to take them after they stopped ranging to a train or lorry and let their youngster go up with the race birds. Ours was Wickstead Park - or Thrapston Railway. Sheffield / Barnsley feds etc.
Some would mix and head straight home. Often many joined up and went with them. Some coming back hours later, or next day even … time of lib depending too and weather.
Yet still many take the birds 3 - 5 miles in stages... often dropping some as they go on!
If a pigeon can fly 20 miles home it will do 50 miles. If it can do 50 miles, then depending of system and feed it will do any where within reason.
Around the loft a circle would be at least 440 yards of more (a quarter of a mile).
So as we don't know we can't teach them a thing. BUT they obviously don't get lost.
My personal theory here that we don't loose birds in as much as they just don't want to come back. Yes of course weather / hard days etc. take a big bearing. Many pigeons have two lofts which I will tell about some time later.
But silly people in the East, or not so silly, would have you believe that location / wind doesn't make a difference, But then they would.

Well let's start with Breaking points. many say go 10 miles to the east and 20 - 30 miles up the road. Why? Only one answer to why and that is because. They subconsciously accept that the pigeon A. is hamper, or at best annoyed at the wind blowing them of course. You have all heard it said as such 'I always know when I have a 'Good Un' they come over them there between those chimneys.. or over that tree' .  OR 'They were of line' etc. In reality it simply means where the wind took them. - As for drag, well most are at the start of headin in the same direction. The ones most wanting home most break earlier and head home, in 1 to 10  batches etc.

Now let's say you are flying a 90 race North to South. The breaking point many say is where they head for first - Couldn't make it -  Indeed from lib that is first point of call for a bird on line.
But the wind is Easterly! Force 8 say. the Arc is, and will be to the West, fact.  Who would be happy if their bird battles on over the breaking point first then home … No one.
Was told and believe the F.M B. is all important.
Like wise the three C's. I have since added two more C's so now it's the 5 C's.
Now train from the points of the circle, it is good if training.

A fellow fancier, a good flyer to boot, moved to Grantham. I met him a few years later where I use to get the Pigeon food / supplies. He still went there.
He asked how and what as we chatted. Smiled when I just went into the loft and looked at the birds as to what to send. First North basket, second pigeon South and so on. He asked 'didn't I bother which way they went'!
'[No of course not' said I. 'makes no difference'. 'Ah' he smiled 'Those are the birds you want to keep'.  I smiled and said nothing ... Because if they didn't - or as some would say 'Couldn't do that, then they weren't in my loft!
 

Interesting thoughts/read Daz . Always brings a smile to my face with much of what I read in regards to how certain people train etc. Most I suggest is pure bollocks to a certain degree North/south East/west, means nothing to a good pigeon I've found. Even east winds some people panic etc but I find them an opportunity to test your birds down here. Fly 4/5 different lines like I do here at times & if being a weak of heart type it wont get you far unfortunately, I've found.

Now that Fancier moaned regards me fetching the pigeons back etc. Gave me a very good point too.
He lived, like I did once before and again after beside a lake two and half miles long by a mile wide. I also lived 40 yard yards by a steeple church. On a sunny day they would most likely have seen these from a very many miles away... But we could lose some from 5 miles. Because I believe once they have circled - unless in a glass top crate, the hone in and , lock on where they are going and see nothing else until the last second or two … watch how the miss trees building when race in the last second.
Also when referring to wind etc. and EAST having no advantage in a westerly wind, two things come to mine. Walk down a street aside a wall sheltering... then pass an entry, feel the difference. Also watch the pigeons over head homing on a windy day, See how the keep fighting to adjust and clamour to get back on course / line. take time strengthe and effort...

Daz wrote:

Now that Fancier moaned regards me fetching the pigeons back etc. Gave me a very good point too.
He lived, like I did once before and again after beside a lake two and half miles long by a mile wide. I also lived 40 yard yards by a steeple church. On a sunny day they would most likely have seen these from a very many miles away... But we could lose some from 5 miles. Because I believe once they have circled - unless in a glass top crate, the hone in and , lock on where they are going and see nothing else until the last second or two … watch how the miss trees building when race in the last second.
Also when referring to wind etc. and EAST having no advantage in a westerly wind, two things come to mine. Walk down a street aside a wall sheltering... then pass an entry, feel the difference. Also watch the pigeons over head homing on a windy day, See how the keep fighting to adjust and clamour to get back on course / line.  take time strengthe and effort...

I once lived right on a Bays edge here etc Daz 1,000 square miles or there abouts as such. Nice little land mark it was for my birds.

Lets get rid of a few myths.

The pigeons during the war did away with many

A pigeon can fly and return home in atrocious weather never having been any where near the place of release and covering miles of water etc; not to mention from foreign lands.

The ability to return to a loft is within every pigeons ability decided at birth to what extent, wether it returns fast or not at all depends on the fancier and wether the pigeon would rather not return having found better accomodation.

All migrating birds one would think use the same means of navigation as pigeons, along with moths and butterflies that migrate thousands of miles and return to the same place etc;

All the above show no signs of having a problem, so the pigeons problems must be man made.

When you consider the deterioration of the immune system, deterioration in the health overall of present day pigeons, along with win at any cost fanciers there is no wonder thesport is on it's last legs.

Regards.

Now I've seen when playing football a ball kicked forward coming back over your head. Seen ir curve when affected by the wind.
When on a POWERFUL plane going to Toronto the screen in front showed with a dotted course the normal flight route it would take But as it was windy a second where it was headed and how it would curve of line. The third showed us what route then the plane would actually be blown. It was so far out that we went over British Columbia and then down country to Toronto. - Just like a pigeon will be and does.
I've seen lorries blown over. Etc. etc.
So does one really want us to believe that an pigeon, less than 8 ounces is not affected by the wind? That say a top notch national winner doesn't get his birds in tip top condition? Of course they do, and yet are we to believe that we can still excel condition wise and be better than them and their birds? That it is because all the best flyers live in Newcastle etc.

With West in the wind how many pigeons in the Northants Fed ever won the Great North Road, or later the NRCC? Simple none! Millionaire with world record priced pigeons and top class managers never ever managed it! Indeed Only three in a hundred and 30 years. Because they won't release if any east in the wind. I wonder why... Of course the committee is mainly on the East side. When a fancier gets backing and eventually gets on the committee after a few years they give up trying.

Sorry Misty,' All migrating birds one would think use the same means of navigation as pigeons, along with moths and butterflies that migrate thousands of miles and return to the same place etc;' they photograph the stars, at night so that they know just where they are etc. However if a, say swallow, if moved for any reason to a new location not far away then they are lost and can't don't make the trip.
other than that I agree with most of what you say. Boomerang in the war, was simple and easy done... can still be done easily of course today.
But I would publish it as such because it could well be used for cheat via some.

Daz,
The Boomerang system involved pigeons going between two lofts, I can see the possibilities of having them return to a far shorter loft from the race point if trained to do so etc; and gaining an unfair advantage.

However, I doubt if many pigeons today could be released at sea,in a foreign country, from an air craft etc; being fed for several days in a container and return to their loft.

Many fanciers cannot get them back from short training tosses, and give them everything under the sun that the commercial boys throw at them.


Many are spent forces at the yearling stage, thousands of dummies are bred every year based on what the fancier pays for them.

Then others buy the dummies that by luck actually survive and they breed more dummies and wonder why there are losing

Misty, I agree very much with what you often say. indeed I believe our minds think a lot alike, Probably yours a little smarter than mine.
The Boomerang system was mostly between two lofts as you rightly state.
However, I was thinking at the same time homing to the Basket. Sorry. that was what I should have been referring to. Not the lofts.

Had a cracking cock birds from that fellow in 1984. Broke it and raced it to Lerwick. Never won, but was pleased. Then I never saw it again .. Well not till the next year when the Pontefract race came along. It came in, in sparking condition. Mated a hen and reared a nest. Went a few races including lerwick. It did this for three years on the trot.

Another broken bird (as I thought) I had given me by a fellow fancier from Raunds was treated a mite harshly …. A tick eyed Blue hen.
I sent it South and never saw it. Next week it hit my loft like a good one. I took the rubber of and left her. that week - end again South she went... week after she hit my loft again like a good un.
this went on for a while to season's end.
Later I met up with the fancier and got talking. It seems he was also sending her racing. on the North Road. So from me on the South she homed like a good un to him and visa - versa.
You couldn't make it up lol.

Daz,
The bomerang system involved using two lofts, with the pigeons being trained to use both, a crooked fancier could trap to the shortest loft and use the distance of the longest loft.

What possible pleasure gained I know not.

That has nothing to do with the state of present day pigeons, the high losses and the fact the majority are spent forces at the yearling stage is evidence of the deterioration of the health and quality of present day pigeons.

I bet their are no more than can be counted on one hand that could be put in a small cage, fed and watered in it for several days and then release at sea miles from home, or in a foreign country and return to the loft often in the worst possible weather conditions, also there were raptors and guns to worry about.

Today fanciers lose birds from distances you could throw a stone.


All the health problems have a cause and fanciers are to blame, rather than let nature take it's course and build the immune system to deal with matters, they treat and in doing so give the chance of the problem becomming even worse.

Iam afraid the mentallity of the latter day fanciers is far removed from the old fanciers, so far as our sport is comcerned.

Regards.

There always will be people trying to convince other people their way is the only way. Yes some pigeons will fly at night. Few years ago one fancier clocked one from a long race at 4 am. Most organizations have limits. Sunset and sunrise. When I was on the colliers, NE coast to English Channel and back we got many pigeons landing on the ships . Usually in semi fog but quite often in good weather. Storms also but my turn on watch steering the ship I did notice that some birds flew over and kept going. Others landed. The ones that landed were usually caught if possible. Then taken back to the NE coast, Newcastle etc and sold as Channel racers.
I have been in the middle of the Atlantic and had tiny litle Red Polls land. Migrating I guess. Hour or so up and on their way. Usually an owl was with them. Daylight yet.
So what does it confirm? Migrating birds are not trained beforehand obviously. It is instinct. Using sun or moon or whatever is available. No drugs no nothing to enhance them. Interestingly enough they have been doing this for many hundereds of years. The weak do not make it. However, they do not have to be clocked. So in my humble opinion send the birds regardless. What I lose this weekend I do not need anyway. No excuses. But only sending half. 20. Bad weather. Others next weekend. Just my thoughts anyway. Each to their own methods.

Then of course you have this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djJbE1Zwe-c&feature=youtu.be

halcanada wrote:

Then of course you have this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djJbE1Zwe-c&feature=youtu.be

Impressive Hal Maybe thou it just could be part of the problem we have with our sport today etc, maybe    .

MISTY wrote:

Lets get rid of a few myths.

The pigeons during the war did away with many

A pigeon can fly and return home in atrocious weather never having been any where near the place of release   and covering miles of water etc; not to mention from foreign lands.

The ability to return to a loft is within every pigeons ability decided at birth to what extent, wether it returns fast or not at all depends on the fancier and wether the pigeon would rather not return having found better accomodation.

All migrating birds one would think use the same means of navigation as pigeons, along with moths and butterflies that migrate thousands of miles and return to the same place etc;

All the above show no signs of having a problem, so the pigeons problems must be man made.

When  you consider the deterioration of the immune system, deterioration in the health overall of present day pigeons, along with win at any cost fanciers there is no wonder thesport is on it's last legs.

Regards.

lets not forget racing pigeons are a man made breed in the first place it has not evolved naturally like wild species

No man utilised the nature of the pigeon. the homing ability is part of it's make up. Like the Albatross homing from 3000 miles or more. And in 6 days on the thermal's are ready there. Golly be a big loft to train them lol. I think I'd make a living making and selling scrapers lol.

do pigeons migrate ….forgive me I am unaware

You are correct oldstrain, the pigeons today used in our sport have not evolved,
they have progressively been subjected to selective breeding using the rock dove and other species of birds.

In nature a problem arrises and the fittest survive and produce a means of doing away with the problem through the immune system. and that is usually, other than on the odd occasion the end of the matter.

What progressive fanciers have done is go against this and because of cost of pigeons , that should have been culled or which if left to nature would have died anyway, they have kept many alive using numerous curative and preventative means, and bred and sold thousands, from them.

So now no one knows which pigeons are naturally healthy and which are held together with medication ect; up

You cannot either breed in or breed out the homing instict, it part of all animals that migrate, along with many that do not or they would not return to their abodes.

Go against nature and there is only one winner.


Regards

Had I not had open hole and had to train pigeons they would have been trained in any weather.

How can you expect a pigeon to deal with adverse conditions that arise in a race etc; having been only subject ideal conditions????. whilst training.


Regards.

Hal,
That little hen is the sweetest little thing, it shines like a little star.

Intelligence written all over it.

AS for all the other matters I can only say I wish some thought would be directed towards saving the sport, the sport is in dire need of some original ideas , there is nothing that has not been covered a hundred times relative to the sport.

Regards.

MISTY wrote:

You are correct oldstrain, the pigeons today used in our sport have not evolved,
they have progressively been subjected to selective breeding using the rock dove and other species of birds.

In nature a problem arrises and the fittest survive and produce a means of doing away with the problem through the immune system. and that is usually, other than on the odd occasion the end of the matter.

What progressive fanciers have done is go against this and because of cost of pigeons , that should have been culled or which if left to nature would have died anyway, they have kept many alive using numerous curative and preventative  means, and bred and sold thousands, from them.

So now no one knows which pigeons are naturally healthy and which are held together with medication ect; up

You cannot either breed in or breed out the homing instict, it part of all animals that migrate, along with many that do not or they would not return to their abodes.

Go against nature and there is only one winner.


Regards

atb