Well worth reading.

Basically just pure common sense that anyone with a brain would recognise.

Regards.

One of the real problems with our sport is the experts and the knowledge boxes who feel we grass root fanciers are idiots.

Any reasonably sensible person could engage in the sport without anything other than a basic loft, a basic knowledge of the feeding requirements and a few good pigeons, this has been proven many times on allotments and back gardens etc; where fanciers have won out of turn and their best pigeons bought by the money mongrels.

It is these facts that we should be giving out and not the impression that you need a loft like a bungalow, a degree in clinical conditions and pay thousands of pounds for pigeons and have a vet as your best mate if you do not want to go bankrupt.

I feel there is little hope for the sport whilst it is made to look like the most expensive and complicated sport instead of one of the least complicated and reasonably costly if approached in the right manner.

Regards.

it aint rocket science I have cut everything out all vitamins and fads apart from ropa b which I really rate ...no more tonics on a Thursday or oils on the corn just good feed water and a bit of ropa and I have proved to myself supplements are not needed ,apart from minerals and grit 24/7

Misty do not shoot the messenger! I do NOT agree 100% with the article. It was intended for general reading. As Silvio stated, do not beleive everything you read. If he was that good (he did win with few pigeons) if what he proposes is Gospel he would still be winning. His best cock went to David Clausing for crossing. Mutual agreement. Pre-potent parents? Who can tell except by racing the young? My basic standard is best racers breed. But on many occasions have kept birds that I like for some other reason, only average racers. Most have also bred me very good ones. Just a sense one gets. Of course made mistakes, but I have to answer to no one but myself. It is an art not a science.

halcanada wrote:

Misty do not shoot the messenger! I do NOT agree 100% with the article. It was intended for general reading. As Silvio stated, do not beleive everything you read. If he was that good (he did win with few pigeons) if what he proposes is Gospel he would still be winning. His best cock went to David Clausing for crossing.  Mutual agreement.  Pre-potent parents? Who can tell except by racing the young? My basic standard is best racers breed. But on many occasions have kept birds that I like for some other reason, only average racers. Most have also bred me very good ones. Just a sense one gets. Of course made mistakes, but I have to answer to no one but myself. It is an art not a science.

I agree Hal read & absorb etc I say but that doesn't mean one must believe everything that is written, is truthful & gospel as such. Always best to keep an open mind I suggest or one may just finish up a grumpy old Ba**ard type maybe I suspect .

halcanada wrote:

http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/breeding.htm

cheers Hal, enjoyed the read.

We all know there are many different ways in which to engage in our sport and often direct opposite methods result in what one wants to gain from the sport.

My idea from the start was to attempt to give the pigeons as near a normal life as possible.

To this end they had a completely open loft, fed good feed, and other basics always available.

No aids to success were used nor preventative medication.

They were fed out in the morning and had access to the basic part of the feed all the time, the part which included the small seed etc; was limited to the early feed.

They were never looking for food, they were hand tame by pea nut method.

They were never basket trained, on the odd occasion when I sent them on the training transporter it was for my enjoyment and a change for them.

So irrespective of what some may say, basket training is not necessary in all cases.

Those not sitting were constantly on the move either in the air flying or up and down from loft to garden etc;

I can understand that pigeons kept in totally unnatural conditions fastened up for 90% of their life need different treatment, but that would not be for me.


Regards.

Misty I fully appreciate how you kept your birds close to nature and enjoyed your own pigeons based on a love of home and racing with motivation because of that natural love of home. Obviously you received great enjoyment.
Now we're seeing performances by fanciers keeping pigeons in a way you disagree with (widowhood/roundabout, set times for exercise, etc) and they're taking up to the first five or even up to ten in some federations with decent birdages against stiff competition too.
Surely these pigeons must be extremely happy in their home environment (even if it's the opposite of how you kept yours) and very highly motivated too otherwise they'd not be putting up these performances throughout the season?
Not having a pop, far from it, just stating if a pigeon isn't comfortable and happy at the home end, regardless of your methods, it won't be trying on a race day.
Best wishes.

barnie.

The most ill treated children will stick up for their parents and say they love them.

The Robot pigeons of today return to their lofts because there is nothing else they know, that is where they get their food etc; and that is all they are worried about because they have known nothing else.

They are fed and treated as Robots based on the advice of the commercial boys and housed in clinical and depressing, to them, conditions in many cases compared to their natural habitats.

As the vast majority of fanciers have taken up the widowhood and darkness systems it is obvious that the majority, but not all, winners will be on these unnatural systems.

If I was a young lad now, as I was 76 years ago when I first had my pigeons I would rather part with them than subject them to the latest trends.

I was winning with my pigeons right up until I parted with them and got as much, if not more pleasure, from seeing them enjoying their freedom all daylight hours and not fastened up and treated like Robots.

Best wishes.

Regards.

Motivated pigeons win races. Driving cocks, hens on hatching eggs, widowhood cocks/hens. Just racing back for love of home may win some but competing against the previos motivated birds is usually not good enough.

On the natural system if you know every pigeon, which I think a must, you know when a certain pigeon is at it's best and keenest.

Winning by sending numerous entries, which is now the norm proves nothing, if all are using the same methods, no one can know the merits of over hundred birds or understand each individual.

If I was to start again from scratch I would still feel well able to win more than my share. and pigeons that do so more than once.


A widowhood cock races to defend it's box more than anything else.


There are still many winning fanciers that do not use the flavour of the month systems.

As the sport adopts more artificial methods the more problems the sport will suffer as I have said for the past 45years or more, you can not treat animals or anything else with disrespect and not suffer consequences.


Regards.

from what I can see from my own club is that the natural birds do put up good performances but don't seem to hold any form so generally a good race then that's it or at least until its in its ideal nest position again ...the widowers and roundabout seem to be more consistent and that's not an opinion its what is happening down the club ...natural is ok nowt wrong with it but I prefer routine and control of the birds living in a built up area as I have to respect my neighbours and their activities so open loft is a no for me atb

Oldstrain is right. One of the best pigeon fliers in Canada at all distances won numerous awards. Short but especially long. When I joined his club I asked him his secret. "Good pigeons. Good feed. Do not mate them all at the same time. First matings are when the leaves are on the trees. Stagger the matings."
In two years in that club I beat him twice. One 500 miler, one 200 miler. When they read the clock those times he got up and walked out. Just could not relate to it. Most of his birds came from the UK and some from Europe. Sore loser but a smart guy. He was head of the CU for a number of years. That is how the form shows in natural, every so many weeks they are in tip top shape. IF one is smart enough to recognise it.

I can only speak from my own experience and knowledge of organisations in this area, but providing you were a decent pigeon man with some half decent pigeons, you would have to race some form of widowhood with old birds, and race darkness young birds to get a card on racedays probably up to 350 miles which is the bulk of races anyway.
There will be some naturals timed at the channel but these would have been widowhood early in season and set out for the chosen long distance race on their first nest. However for every natural pigeon timed at the distance there will be 2 or 3 on roundabout or full widowhood. I wouldn't call them Robots but we'll prepared pigeons with a true love of home, highly motivated by their owners who in many cases only keep small teams.
(But what do I know??)

with all due respect misty my pigeons are treated impeccably just because I am flying widowhood does not mean the pigeons are not happy or healthy,I tweeked widowhood a little last few races its not set in stone the cocks will have a few months with their hens at the end of the season...open loft is not for all neither can it be in built up areas ,something you don't seem to ever mention but a lot of people don't actually like pigeons and natural is messy and smelly so it just would not do here we wintered 9 cocks to race this year and only had 4 after the second race so no mob flying here to get a result atb

oldstrain, get your points regarding neighbours etc; and you are right, I have been very lucky in that my neighbours and I have a live and let live policy and have had for over 45 years in the present location, can see from many instances of neighbour relationships that this may be an exception rather than the rule.

I did fasten the pigeons in at night on the longest days and let them out at around 6 o clock so that they were not out and about at 3 am etc;

I do not doubt that you give your pigeons the best possible attention you feel applicable., the you being the defining word, what do you think the pigeon thinks about widowhood or the darkness system and what damage do you think this may cause the pigeons in the long run, some things take time to effect an animal, all problems have a cause and the sport has many relative to the pigeons health etc;

The normal life for a pigeon is to be free all daylight hours, not fastened up in a unaturally orcetrated state of mind for 90% of it's time for a large part of the year.

It may be prudent to consider how one would feel being treated as a widowhood cock.

Regards.

it may be prudent to consider how one would feel being treated as a widowhood cock. wrote:

Regards.

Sounds ok to me, get my own space all week, peace and quiet, and guaranteed treat on a Saturday .

Beats the natural system I'm on at the minute!!

It takes all sorts but I have a feeling most normal people would prefer freedom all the time and food of THEIR choice along with accommodation fitting human beings and not clinical houses that have proven in the past and presently to be detrimental to human health, not to mention being grabbed by the scruff of the neck and sent miles and have to scramble back often with not enough strength to do so having been scientifically fed etc;

I have always preferred to have my oats as often as wanted and not as a reward.

As for food, I have always preferred to have my oats when I felt like it and not as a reward..


Regards.

so lets get it right here ,a bird with its own box and masses of loft space access to a flight best food minerals ad lib and being on widowhood is going to affect its health ,I have seen some natural set ups that are shameful so I don't subscribe to yer point of view but respect you have one as I do ,if I thought for one minute their health was suffering I would pack the pigeons in I wont keep animals in any sort of discomfort the cocks are fine and look and handle very well thankyou

oldstrain, you miss the point entirely.

You could fasten a human being up in the best accomodation possible, give he/she the best food possible and confine them for 90% of their time and they would possibly look the fittest and healthyist they could be, take our cushy prisons for instance.

However, would you consider that a reasonable existance?.

In particul; if at intervals they were expected to run a marothon.


If the natural loft is run in a proper manner it is neither dirty nor unhealthy, it in fact is more like the pigeons natural requirements, a clinical loft is detrimental as the immune system is adversely affected and is the reason for many losses, and the need for continual visits to the vet etc;

A pigeons natural life, and anyone keeping any animal should keep them as near as possible to, is freedom 24 hours a day.

I think you love your pigeons as much as any fancier and do what you think is in their best interests, I just wish you could ask your pigeons what they think.

Regards.

A racing pigeon is not a natural bird, like a crow, skylark or owl, whatever you want to compare it to.
A racing pigeon has been created by pigeon racers for the purpose of racing. Therefore I don't think there is such a thing as a "natural" way of keeping them. The option of open hole, various widowhood systems, darkness, whatever, is there for all to choose, but what's considered natural for a species that's man made??
I don't know.

Whereas keeping a skylark in a cage is undoubtedly not natural in any way, is exercising your birds twice a day unnatural??

The differences I think being discussed here at the moment are ways of keeping pigeons versus ways of racing pigeons.

If pigeons aren't happy at home or not being cared for correctly in any way then they're a mile back on raceday. If someone is up in the prizes all season with old birds and young birds in the many weather conditions experienced and from many distances then they've unquestionably got things right, doing things that suits their birds, motivating them and keeping them happy regardless of what system is being used.

Respect your views barnie, however, just because a fancier is using a method and winning does not mean that all is well. regarding the pigeons welfare, you can make a bear dance, and some do by brute force as with fighting cocks and dogs etc;

Just because you obtain your desires does not mean that everything is fine and dandy, it is HOW you obtain them that is the whole point.

I do take your point regarding man turning the pigeon into a racing machine, just as the cage bird people have turned many breeds into freaks.

There is NO better motivation for a pigeon than the love of it's home, irrespective of any other consideration.

This can be best attained by making it as happy as possible and not by artificial means.

Of course you have to understand each pigeon in the natural system to know when it is the keenest, but that to my mind is up to the fancier.

Many fanciers depend on drugs to keep their pigeons healthy, but that is artificial as is all the aids to win etc; over 200 of them, putting a load of rubbish down their throats.

You can only make a pigeon fly as good as the ability it has when it is born and this can be achieved without either the widow hood or the darkness system, also not needing any preventative or curative drugs etc;

Many present day fanciers are willing to let their pigeons time themselves in and want to be involved and win without actually being realy involved more than a couple of minutes a day, I can recall one saying in the BHW that he could be out with the wife shopping instead of waiting for the pigeons.

The old fanciers who actually knew the enjoyment the sport can offer would not be at all interested in the present day sport.

I feel that it will be more and more difficult to get anyone interested in the sport because of the manner it is portrayed, if you have a son or grand that you can encourage along with their friends you may get a FEW take a short term interest but not enough to offset the vast losses the sport is suffering from natural causes and being fed up with the present attitude of some clubs regarding membership etc;

If a method suits you then

This machine has a mind of it's own.

If a method suits you and you feel the pigeons are being cared for in a proper manner, then fine, many of the practises of today would not suit me but the one who pays calls the tune.

Regards.

MISTY wrote:

Respect your views barnie,   

And I yours, and also those of others too.