Tosses Management

Hi Friends,
In Pakistan , racing season is about to began. all fanciers are tossing pigeons

I had a discussion with one of our senior fancier about tosses methodology and both of us has different path. I start training on road when my pigeons start flying easily for an hour on loft. I start with 5Km (flight distance) toss and then 10,20,40 and 80KM . I repeat toss from same distance if pigeon de tracked or coming late, if they are coming quick, I think no need to repeat from same distance. Once 80km achieved and I still has time, I prefer for small tosses like 10 - 20 km as warm up.
Other friend suggest to start with 3-4km and just add 5-6KM on leading tosses upto 60KM. After 60Km he said to add 15-20km.

My argument to him was, they are homing pigeons and if they are coming correct, why to repeat or add less distance. as in races , we added almost 100KM on every race start from 160KM to 700KM. So if they can't come to 20-40km jump, how they will manage to come in race but he said , it is good to have lower jumps in training tosses to invoke their homing ability.

what are your thoughts on training tosses and distance ?

Thanks

Interesting post … one that has been told over tests of time.
Your very own words are saying '... My argument to him was, they are homing pigeons, and if they are coming correct, why to repeat or add less distance. as in races, we added almost 100KM on every race start from 160KM to 700KM. So if they can't come to 20-40km jump, how they will manage to come in race...' says two things.
A. if they don't come... then you can't send them anywhere.
B. Also if and as they are Homing pigeons. They home if they like your loft that is. Kiss is all one needs. Keep it sweet and simple'!

The only reason to train a pigeon is for fitness simple, I believe.
I did well not training, as most fanciers did, for many years, Flying the distance etc. etc.
Surprisingly velocities were as good depending on weather and 'Race libs' and wind etc.

If a pigeon circle it does at least a 1/4 of a mile... add the circles and you will have the mileage they do around the loft … Youngsters roam for vast distances and return. They love to fly with zest and vigour etc.
Why train? Once loft fitness is achieved, then race points are to put mileage under their wings - again if needed - for chosen races.
It boils down to 'What you feel is best for YOUR birds and the feeling that you are doing right by your birds.
One thing for sure, there are 100's of reasonings. So find a system that you like and feel comfortable with and is easy for your being able. The bird's losses are most likely because they don't want to stay, or rush home to the loft... Others do and come quicker. So the first yardstick is in your' own loft.
We did once just enter races... Now too many fear being left behind, or others are stealing a 'March'!
The first lesson is allowing the youngster to become contented! You can't motivate a pigeon if it doesn't have a love for home, a territory to protect and fly too!

AS far as I was concerned the ONLY motivation a pigeon needed was a complete love of a contented and stress free loft.

Some use jealousy etc; but observation of extreme contentment at certain times in a pigeons cycle is the best, and causes no stress.

Never believed in training, proved beyond any doubt open loft pigeons get as fit as possible on their own merits flying round the loft when they want for shear joy and clapping up and down from ground to loft all day long etc;. Why waste time and money and sicken them off?.

I have jumped pigeons into over 100 mile races as young birds many times but the usual the first races were around 60 miles and lost very few.

Of course not all are winners or even do well, every pigeons ability is decided at birth and no artificial means can make it go beyond it's basic capabilities.

All artificial means have never ever interested me, I would rather not have been involved using some of the methods and treatment used today.

To me it depends on just why you are in the sport and how you actually look on our feathered friends, it takes all sorts and the above is how I have always viewed matters.

I am aware not everyone can have open loft but I would not have kept them any other way.

Regards.

tanveerhbaig wrote:

Hi Friends,
In Pakistan , racing season is about to began. all fanciers are tossing pigeons  

I had a discussion with one of our senior fancier about tosses methodology and both of us has different path. I start training on road when my pigeons start flying easily for an hour on loft. I start with 5Km (flight distance) toss and then 10,20,40 and 80KM . I repeat toss from same distance if pigeon de tracked or coming late, if they are coming quick, I think no need to repeat from same distance. Once 80km achieved  and I still has time, I prefer for small tosses like 10 - 20 km as warm up.
Other friend suggest to start with 3-4km and just add 5-6KM on leading tosses upto 60KM. After 60Km he said to add 15-20km.  

My argument to him was, they are homing pigeons and if they are coming correct, why to repeat or add less distance. as in races , we added almost 100KM on every race start from 160KM to 700KM. So if they can't come to 20-40km jump, how they will manage to come in race    but he said , it is good to have lower jumps in training tosses to invoke their homing ability.

what are your thoughts on training tosses and distance ?

Thanks

Don't wish to be unkind to any anyone here etc Tanveer But forget the homing pigeon scenario I suggest as they are racing pigeons as such come the end of the day. Pissy footing around with 3/4 & 5/6Km type tosses on average is a total waste of your time I believe & also your birds & you can be serving your birds better if you become a wee bit more adventurous with how you train with your race program there if it's at all possible. I know its nice & has a nice type feel about it  when one suggest, loft to race type of thing for a training regime but if you have those professional with their training attitude/regime in a local sense your one a hiding to nothing from my perspective I'm if it's like my general area down here as such.

Agree!!

yes waiste of time short tosses we train from 2 points...12 miles and 24 miles ...the 12 mile toss is only used for the first few tosses

Yes 12 and 20 for me. Then if flying good do not train.

halcanada wrote:

Yes 12 and 20 for me. Then if flying good do not train.

Always trained down here North/south east or west etc     means nothing to me if the winds is in their face for the enjoyment factor     as I'm always off as such, when in the mood.

Naturally, there is a lot of self-thought as to doing what's right and best for the pigeons. One can't be faulted for that, that's for sure!
Much I believe regarding them in human terms.
Often heard a comment saying 'If you ..' ' Would you...' You can understand, relate ...'
Hence the comparison of a human angle!

What, I believe, is often amiss is that in some ways they are superior to us … Their compass, for example. Their' endurance!
Also, our lack of being unable to understand their whys, their wherefores of our beloved friends.
Many, I fear, believe don't give them the merit that they deserve. Many good, exceptional birds are and have been, held back from showing their class and quality!. More so as time has, and does go on.
'Jackson was flying and getting yearlings back in good time over a hundred years ago!

Club member make excuses why they don't send the youngster very far! Excuse saying 'Its too far! Old birds! 'Well, they WON'T do the distance'! The strain I have is bred for ...' etc.
I say and believe it is down to system and faith in the birds! Give the birds a chance to prove themselves. Also, of course, many don't like long and distance racing because of the 'Waiting Game'!
Whereas in years gone by, - and still so today, it was the 'Pride and Joy' of the arduous that took the Blue Ribbon. Likewise, today, who remembers who won the 150-mile paper bag races!?
Years from now, fanciers will brag, and others remember who won distance and hard races!
Indeed when I started and onwards the so-called 'Legends' were those that excelled in them races. J.M.O. And beliefs.

Daz wrote:

Naturally, there is a lot of self-thought as to doing what's right and best for the pigeons. One can't be faulted for that, that's for sure!
Much I believe regarding them in human terms.
Often heard a comment saying 'If you ..' ' Would you...' You can understand, relate ...'
Hence the comparison of a human angle!

What, I believe, is often amiss is that in some ways they are superior to us … Their compass, for example. Their' endurance!
Also, our lack of being unable to understand their whys, their wherefores of our beloved friends.
Many, I fear, believe don't give them the merit that they deserve. Many good, exceptional birds are and have been,  held back from showing their class and quality!. More so as time has, and does go on.
'Jackson was flying and getting yearlings back in good time over a hundred years ago!

Club member make excuses why they don't send the youngster very far!  Excuse saying 'Its too far! Old birds! 'Well, they WON'T do the distance'! The strain I have is bred for ...' etc.
I say and believe it is down to system and faith in the birds! Give the birds a chance to prove themselves. Also, of course, many don't like long and distance racing because of the 'Waiting Game'!
 Whereas in years gone by, - and still so today, it was the 'Pride and Joy' of the arduous that took the Blue Ribbon. Likewise, today, who remembers who won the 150-mile paper bag races!?
Years from now, fanciers will brag, and others remember who won distance and hard races!
Indeed when I started and onwards the so-called 'Legends' were those that excelled in them races. J.M.O. And beliefs.

Hard to adapt these days I've found Daz at times I'm    with the modern day type champs etc. Win  some pissy little sprint race & they are now straight on face book/twitter telling the world as such    .

Agree with yoi both.

Today yearlings dominate most races and are never heard of again in many instances, you get the odd outstanding pigeon that goes on to better things.

Others end up as stock birds breed and sell.

At one time sending yearlings over the water was banned.

Many years ago pigeons flew from Rome, bet there is not one that could do it in race time now.

If you consider the number of pigeons that have been bred in an attempt to fly the extreme distances in race time over the many years the sport has been in existence you will find less than one in a million will have done it.

If that is a sport ??????.

In the sprint and middle distance races every pigeon should be capable of the task asked and the best pigeons should win.

I would never ever have sent a pigeon that I thought incapable of the task I asked of it to any race.

None in just hope and pray scenario.

As I have said many times, IT TAKES ALL SORTS, in my way of looking at it the pigeons welfare was as important as anything.

Regards.

May be interesting to hear how different fanciers went about gaining their stock birds, and how they came into the sport in the first place.

Will leave mine till last but hope all will join in, be all pigeons.

[quote="MISTY"]May be interesting to hear how different fanciers went about gaining their stock birds, and how they came into the sport in the first place.

Will leave mine till last but hope all will join in, be all pigeons.


Me one before last then Misty lol.

Other computer was hacked. Now junk. This one is slow. Time out errors when clicking on a site. Least this site works!
1952 kept 2 pigeons in a coal house. West Hartlepool. Then shared an allotment. After the Merchant Navy years etc, got married then started again in Canada. Mid-sixties. Raced them. Not very good. Imported Hammond and Whitaker Grooters. No better. Few other strains also. Some expensive. Smartened up. Bred mu best to each other and culled heavy. Took a few years but it paid off.
Presently now and last 10 years or more, red Jansens. Now crossed with stray white hen from US. Plus her daughters. Whites are excellent so far.
Will band some for a friend to race in a few days. Few early ones. Never had a problem with early ones. Lots of aviary time before they go out. Get to watch raptors etc,. Health, natural, is what counts.

Knackered wrote:

Daz wrote:

Naturally, there is a lot of self-thought as to doing what's right and best for the pigeons. One can't be faulted for that, that's for sure!
Much I believe regarding them in human terms.
Often heard a comment saying 'If you ..' ' Would you...' You can understand, relate ...'
Hence the comparison of a human angle!

What, I believe, is often amiss is that in some ways they are superior to us … Their compass, for example. Their' endurance!
Also, our lack of being unable to understand their whys, their wherefores of our beloved friends.
Many, I fear, believe don't give them the merit that they deserve. Many good, exceptional birds are and have been,  held back from showing their class and quality!. More so as time has, and does go on.
'Jackson was flying and getting yearlings back in good time over a hundred years ago!

Club member make excuses why they don't send the youngster very far!  Excuse saying 'Its too far! Old birds! 'Well, they WON'T do the distance'! The strain I have is bred for ...' etc.
I say and believe it is down to system and faith in the birds! Give the birds a chance to prove themselves. Also, of course, many don't like long and distance racing because of the 'Waiting Game'!
 Whereas in years gone by, - and still so today, it was the 'Pride and Joy' of the arduous that took the Blue Ribbon. Likewise, today, who remembers who won the 150-mile paper bag races!?
Years from now, fanciers will brag, and others remember who won distance and hard races!
Indeed when I started and onwards the so-called 'Legends' were those that excelled in them races. J.M.O. And beliefs.

Hard to adapt these days I've found Daz at times I'm    with the modern day type champs etc. Win  some pissy little sprint race & they are now straight on face book/twitter telling the world as such    .

disagree entirely oz i think if one wants to spout then its fair enough alot of sprint flyers work hard on their systems and should be seen and heard ,after all it is some flyers speciality ...i would send a hen anywhere but personally think it cruel to basket cocks for several days so we dont ,i dont think its fair to call people out because they put results up as maybe its for freinds and family to see ,even if it is a bit of self pride where is the harm ...better than some of the $h1t£ spouted here at times at least its pigeon related jmo atb

results were always put in the local papers EVERY week here.
In later times, the paper became once a week and streamlined and on the internet.
I was surprised often when people in the street (non fanciers) asked how I, or so and so were doing regards racing AS it was in the paper. So surprised what interest there was … knew actually, but surprised that they even asked about it! Good advert and an interest … Often think it isn't the youngsters targeted to be members, but those about to, or have retired and want a worth while past time!

Thanks Hal, interesting.

Appears no one else is interested.

IN my case I was around seven my father had a gamekeeper friend who he used to help, my father was never interested in pigeons but cage birds.

The game keeper was called Murgartroyde ? he bred Barkers and Logans and advertised them for sale.

He gave me some young ones and that started me in the love of our feathered friends.

I kept them until going in the army, and since coming out.

When around 13 I reported a stray which belonged to a Mr Marshal of Redlands Road Loughborough.

He sent me a pair of stock birds on loan, I never liked fastening pigeons up so shaved one wing in each and let them out.

The hen flew back after awhile with half awing and I thought that was that and he would send for the cock back.

No, he said the pigeon was in first class condition , sent it back and bred me six young ones.

That was the type of fancier in those days.

Went into partnership with a ex airman at 16 until going into the army, instead of staying working down the pit.

On returning is another story.

Regards.

oldstrain wrote:

Knackered wrote:

Daz wrote:

Naturally, there is a lot of self-thought as to doing what's right and best for the pigeons. One can't be faulted for that, that's for sure!
Much I believe regarding them in human terms.
Often heard a comment saying 'If you ..' ' Would you...' You can understand, relate ...'
Hence the comparison of a human angle!

What, I believe, is often amiss is that in some ways they are superior to us … Their compass, for example. Their' endurance!
Also, our lack of being unable to understand their whys, their wherefores of our beloved friends.
Many, I fear, believe don't give them the merit that they deserve. Many good, exceptional birds are and have been,  held back from showing their class and quality!. More so as time has, and does go on.
'Jackson was flying and getting yearlings back in good time over a hundred years ago!

Club member make excuses why they don't send the youngster very far!  Excuse saying 'Its too far! Old birds! 'Well, they WON'T do the distance'! The strain I have is bred for ...' etc.
I say and believe it is down to system and faith in the birds! Give the birds a chance to prove themselves. Also, of course, many don't like long and distance racing because of the 'Waiting Game'!
 Whereas in years gone by, - and still so today, it was the 'Pride and Joy' of the arduous that took the Blue Ribbon. Likewise, today, who remembers who won the 150-mile paper bag races!?
Years from now, fanciers will brag, and others remember who won distance and hard races!
Indeed when I started and onwards the so-called 'Legends' were those that excelled in them races. J.M.O. And beliefs.

Hard to adapt these days I've found Daz at times I'm    with the modern day type champs etc. Win  some pissy little sprint race & they are now straight on face book/twitter telling the world as such    .

disagree entirely oz i think if one wants to spout then its fair enough alot of sprint flyers work hard on their systems and should be seen and heard ,after all it is some flyers speciality ...i would send a hen anywhere but personally think it cruel to basket cocks for several days so we dont ,i dont think its fair to call people out because they put results up as maybe its for freinds and family to see ,even if it is a bit of self pride where is the harm ...better than some of the $h1t£ spouted here at times at least its pigeon related jmo atb

Struck a wee nerve some what did I O/S I'm rather glad etc as that was my full intent   in just keeping the wheel in motion here. One must never forget I suggest, we are all, but like a branch on a tree & each requires the other at the end of the day to survive & remain healthy type of thing .

Daz wrote:

results were always put in the local papers EVERY week here.
In later times, the paper became once a week and streamlined and on the internet.
I was surprised often when people in the street (non fanciers) asked how I, or so and so were doing regards racing AS it was in the paper. So surprised what interest there was … knew actually, but surprised that they even asked about it! Good advert and an interest … Often think it isn't the youngsters targeted to be members, but those about to, or have retired and want a worth while past time!

Same here Daz Was a half decent footballer here when young etc Coaches favourite type but each year, half way through the season I just disappeared totally off their grid type of thing but they always knew where my main love was as all the pigeon results started appearing in the local paper beside the football results.

Knackered wrote:

oldstrain wrote:

Knackered wrote:

Daz wrote:

Naturally, there is a lot of self-thought as to doing what's right and best for the pigeons. One can't be faulted for that, that's for sure!
Much I believe regarding them in human terms.
Often heard a comment saying 'If you ..' ' Would you...' You can understand, relate ...'
Hence the comparison of a human angle!

What, I believe, is often amiss is that in some ways they are superior to us … Their compass, for example. Their' endurance!
Also, our lack of being unable to understand their whys, their wherefores of our beloved friends.
Many, I fear, believe don't give them the merit that they deserve. Many good, exceptional birds are and have been,  held back from showing their class and quality!. More so as time has, and does go on.
'Jackson was flying and getting yearlings back in good time over a hundred years ago!

Club member make excuses why they don't send the youngster very far!  Excuse saying 'Its too far! Old birds! 'Well, they WON'T do the distance'! The strain I have is bred for ...' etc.
I say and believe it is down to system and faith in the birds! Give the birds a chance to prove themselves. Also, of course, many don't like long and distance racing because of the 'Waiting Game'!
 Whereas in years gone by, - and still so today, it was the 'Pride and Joy' of the arduous that took the Blue Ribbon. Likewise, today, who remembers who won the 150-mile paper bag races!?
Years from now, fanciers will brag, and others remember who won distance and hard races!
Indeed when I started and onwards the so-called 'Legends' were those that excelled in them races. J.M.O. And beliefs.

Hard to adapt these days I've found Daz at times I'm    with the modern day type champs etc. Win  some pissy little sprint race & they are now straight on face book/twitter telling the world as such    .

disagree entirely oz i think if one wants to spout then its fair enough alot of sprint flyers work hard on their systems and should be seen and heard ,after all it is some flyers speciality ...i would send a hen anywhere but personally think it cruel to basket cocks for several days so we dont ,i dont think its fair to call people out because they put results up as maybe its for freinds and family to see ,even if it is a bit of self pride where is the harm ...better than some of the $h1t£ spouted here at times at least its pigeon related jmo atb

Struck a wee nerve some what did I O/S I'm rather glad etc as that was my full intent   in just keeping the wheel in motion here. One must never forget I suggest, we are all, but like a branch on a tree & each requires the other at the end of the day to survive & remain healthy type of thing .

exactly what i was trying to point out ...short ,middle or long its all part of the game ,none should be discredited ...if you go fishing for snapper just be careful you dont reel in a barracuda

It is obvious to anyone who understands animals of any description that in nature they have natural limits allied to their normal life.

In many cases for pure entertainment, and a source of competition mankind has sought to install certain features within a species to suit the desired end.

So through testing and on going selection many species are now nothing like the originals.

Budgies, canaries etc;

Also our feathered friends.

We decided to use them for sport and compete with them, and also originally commercially (carrier pigeons).

In the wild the originals (Doves) would fly only very short distances relative to the source of food etc;

So through selective breeding and testing we have ended up as of now.

To my mind sport with any animal is to give all those involved a fair chance of all
completing the task asked of them and the best win.

Not sending pigeons far beyond their natural capabilities in the hope of getting one back, (and very, very few do in the long distance races)

I am well aware of all the possible problems in every race, however, if there is not a reasonable chance of every pigeon doing the task asked then in my opinion
it is not, ON.

Regards.

MISTY wrote:

It is obvious to anyone who understands animals of any description that in nature they have natural  limits allied to their normal life.

In many cases for pure entertainment, and a source of competition mankind has sought to install certain features within a species to suit the desired end.

So through testing and on going selection many species are now nothing like the originals.

Budgies, canaries etc;

Also our feathered friends.

We decided to use them for sport and compete with them, and also originally commercially (carrier pigeons).

In the wild the originals (Doves) would fly only very short distances  relative to the source of food etc;

So through selective breeding and testing we have ended up as of now.

To my mind sport with any animal is to give all those involved a fair chance of all
completing the task asked of them and the best win.

Not sending pigeons far beyond their natural capabilities in the hope of getting one back, (and very, very few do in the long distance races)

I am well aware of all the possible problems in every race, however, if there is not a reasonable chance of every pigeon doing the task asked then in my opinion
it is not, ON.

Regards.    
 

 

Fair enough comment Misty etc . The part thou that really gets right up my nose is when the do goodder mob & certain freak types with a certain agenda, push the barrow as such that more pigeons are lost in the distance type races than in the short ones. Absolute fallacy from my perspective on average, as most are long gone before the distance races come around in most lofts, when one looks at the rings sold & then bred over all.

Of course you are right Knackered.

Thousands of pigeons are lost every year from short and middle distance races or why are so many bred every year?.

Far fewer from the distance races because far fewer go to them.

It is an unfortunate fact that the sport as a whole went forward for many years until we decided to go continental ( only a few fanciers originally) then the rot set in and we inherited all their problems health wise and our pigeons health is now in many cases beyond recall needing medication both preventative and curative.

Losses are expected every year on a grand scale, several reasons, bad health in the pigeons hidden with treatment, raptors, bad transport (never attempted as I suggested several times to see if the pigeons deteriorate in the transporter by having a vet look at them at several liberation sites prior to liberation)

The fittest pigeons will be the ones that go down faster than the others, (some fanciers only ever won after an hold over receiving good food for the first time)

Think the whole sport needs a very good spring clean.

The Hall Report suggested one, the clique turned it down.

Regards.

MISTY wrote:

Of course you are right Knackered.

Thousands of pigeons are lost every year from short and middle distance races or why are so many bred every year?.

Far fewer from the distance races because far fewer go to them.

It is an unfortunate fact that the sport as a whole went forward for many years until we decided to go continental ( only a few fanciers originally) then the rot set in and we inherited all their problems health wise and our pigeons health is now in many cases beyond recall needing medication both preventative and curative.

Losses are expected every year on a grand scale, several reasons, bad health in the pigeons hidden with treatment, raptors, bad transport (never attempted as I suggested several times  to see if the pigeons deteriorate in the transporter by having a vet look at them at several liberation sites prior to liberation)

The fittest pigeons will be the ones that go down faster than the others, (some fanciers only ever won after an hold over receiving good food for the first time)

Think the whole sport needs a very good spring clean.

The Hall Report suggested one, the clique turned it down.

Regards.    

Don't quite know if that Vet thing some how would work etc Misty as suggested I'm as here we have one on the scene 24/7/52 & he is battling believe it or not "Big time" after breeding hundreds & hundreds each year, to just find a basket full in our long races    .