feeding & training past and present

looking at the past to the present whats members thoughts on feeding and training systems
for example look at the great athleetes jesse owens emile zarepek ect the great footballers george best bobby charlton denis law jim baxter ect
if you look at their diets training methords and equitement used in your opinion do you
think these guys would still be great brought into the modern world of sport
the same can be said for our birds after all they are athleets of the sky feeding and training have changed greatly in the past 50 years maybe even the dynamics of some birds a nice topic to start the week end lets have every ones opinions sean

i dont think the birds are all that different then they were years ago they were just as capable then but the feeding and management has deffo changed.

take our lofts racing the last few years very rarely did we win a race under 200 miles and over 1000ypm but were always there when racing from the coat or France but last year we altered our feeding and management and won 8 1st club and were second open from the feds longest race

and thats with breeding that goes back 40 years or more

i do think peoples ambitions have changed. more and more people are specializing in sprint / middle distance racing. and fewer are racing at 500+


great post sean should be a good debate

not sure if i can answer the pigeon side sean as ive only just got back after 14 year brake i have noticed more get treatments on a weekly basis are the birds better i dont know now as for athletes yes they are faster today but in the days gone by athletes boxers that went fifteen hard rounds not hugging and footballers who were proud to waer shirts for there country all had one thing in common they had to train hard and stick to the task in hand money didnt motivate them

now you put on ya shirt if ya miss the net of have a cold ya still paid

as for boxs not many can go the 12 rounds now al they do is hug each other

and not many stay champion of the world for more than 2 fights

I think the reason pigeons have got faster is simple the feeding and medication, the birds are healthier and have all the suppliments, if you had 2 sections and gave 1 section nothing but water and a all round mix then you had a section where they were fed a high carb diat and given suppliments (and i mean suppliments not drugs) the 1st section wouldnt be able to compete upto 200 miles.

Look at human children now they dwarf us, why? better food better knowledge of diet by the parents easier access to vitamins etc.

I feel that pigeons are not healthier today? when I was a kid I gave my birds con and water and never even heared of yb sickness, or any other sickness?
I think birds have got faster but only because of more intence and specialized breeding, years ago pigeons was a hobby and it was for fun you hardly ever won money or had websites selling pigeons for massive prices, everyone gave birds away not sold the crap they didnt want.
I believe that everyone breeds more pigeons races everyhting to death , and because of the intence competiotion they have improved the racing abilities.
Top pigeons dont die on the battle field as much either, if someone has a good winner on the contienent from a well known loft they advertise it on pippa and its sold for mega bucks...years ago they would have kept racing till they were gone, so they are now available for breeding better pigeons.

some good answers no doubt about it as their arnt no right or wrong answers
so lets move it on a bit furher
if you look at the great jesse owens he was a coloured kid from basically the getto sheer dedication and natural abilty proved how good he was i honestly believe athleetes nower days do not have the hunger to achieve some use aids to improve performances where as i honestly believe owens with the things that are known now and faciltys would still be a great just like zarapek footballers never will this country see the likes of a charlton best denis law or jim baxter and these guys would certainly prove there tallents on any stage in the new world of sport there will never be a substitute for abilty
look at your speed pigeons look at sprint athleets they built for speed and power over short bursts very simular things to look at more food for thought sean

its the old Merc vs Porsche Syndrome.

Gaz b wrote:

its the old Merc vs Porsche Syndrome.

lol come on Gaz you got more to offer than that answer open it up put down your thoughts encorage others to do the same lets delve into the do,s and dont,s sean

to explain it more detail would take hours, so here's a quick synopsis.

Merc vs Porsche syndrome

I think the build of a racing pigeon and feeding go hand in hand.
Lets use cars for an instance.
A big Mercedes and a Porsche.
The big merc we know is a reliable car through all weathers, very rarely breaks down and the engine is good for over a million miles.
But to fuel it we have to use a fuel with a heavier oil content to make it run properly, the merc can attain great speeds but takes a while to get there, but you would know that the merc will always get from a to b.
If this merc was a pigeon you would have to fill it with feed with a much higher oil content to fuel it, plus it has a good well built body to store reserve energy in.
Now the porsche due to its size can get from a to b much quicker, but you have to fuel it on a much higher octane fuel it can attain high speeds in seconds but uses its fuel at a much quicker rate, in bad weather high winds it becomes much slower but still uses the same amount of amount of fuel, because its body is much smaller it cannot store as much reserve fuel as the merc and therefore needs to refuel somehow.
If this was a small pigeon the principles would be the same, the fuel would be a feed high in carbohydrates grains that would digest quickly and turned instantly into Glycogen this is the fuel for flight for the pigeon which enables the smaller bird to fly quickly at higher speeds, get the feeding wrong and it will run out fuel.
It is possible to speed up the bigger pigeon by using a high a carb mix, but you cannot really successfully slow a fast pigeon down and still make it fly competitively.

I think anyone feeding the specialist racing mixes of today (if they'd been readily available) would have had the edge over the 100% hopper-fed beans men 40-50 years ago.
Same as the systems, roundabout or pure widowhood, darkness you would have the edge over the natural fliers, but don't forget these were seasoned and knowlegeable blokes and it wouldn't be straight forward against them by any means.
I think there were just as many great individual pigeons back then, maybe more so as they raced to well over 4/5 year olds. Not many 3 year olds go to races these days. And by their nature, pigeons stay with the batches so you wouldn't be winning many races 40 years ago by 100ypm even using todays methods, if you could back then. I think the management of birds has advanced fantastically but not so sure the actual development of the racing pigeon as an athelete has advanced as greatly. No doubting through years of selective breeding they have still improved though.

barnie wrote:

I think anyone feeding the specialist racing mixes of today (if they'd been readily available) would have had the edge over the 100% hopper-fed beans men 40-50 years ago.
Same as the systems, roundabout or pure widowhood, darkness you would have the edge over the natural fliers, but don't forget these were seasoned and knowlegeable blokes and it wouldn't be straight forward against them by any means.
I think there were just as many great individual pigeons back then, maybe more so as they raced to well over 4/5 year olds. Not many 3 year olds go to races these days. And by their nature, pigeons stay with the batches so you wouldn't be winning many races 40 years ago by 100ypm even using todays methods, if you could back then. I think the management of birds has advanced fantastically but not so sure the actual development of the racing pigeon as an athelete has advanced as greatly. No doubting through years of selective breeding they have still improved though.

good post barnie sure more thoughts needed so we can move to the next stage sean

Good pigeons that are fed rite and on a system that suits you and the birds will work we had a 16,year break and the only difference were the feed we got the same birds the Van Reets and some other strains and we have more than held our own its all about enjoying your racing.

I was once told by a good fancier that there is a real problem comparing pigeons with humans, I think you cannot compare the 2 no one can argue that humans have moved on in sport, but this shouldnt be taken into pigeon racing.
Firstly you cannot make pigeons do things they dont want to do, a human motivated will train hard because he wants to, and has the ability to make rational decissions.
Pigeons unlike humans would rather stay in the loft, and not fly home in all weathers influanced by wind and drag.
Also humans can take on fluids and energy as they are in the middle of exercise, tennis players play for hours but constantly refresh by eating bannanas and drinking high energy drinks, so do long distance runners and footballers and rugby players.
Pigeons fly on reserves built up in thier bodies and put there by the fancier, a totally different set of rules, so dont compare human progress with pigeons.

Rudderfett wrote:

I was once told by a good fancier that there is a real problem comparing pigeons with humans, I think you cannot compare the 2 no one can argue that humans have moved on in sport, but this shouldnt be taken into pigeon racing.
Firstly you cannot make pigeons do things they dont want to do, a human motivated will train hard because he wants to, and has the ability to make rational decissions.
Pigeons unlike humans would rather stay in the loft, and not fly home in all weathers influanced by wind and drag.
Also humans can take on fluids and energy as they are in the middle of exercise, tennis players play for hours but constantly refresh by eating bannanas and drinking high energy drinks, so do long distance runners and footballers and rugby players.
Pigeons fly on reserves built up in thier bodies and put there by the fancier, a totally different set of rules, so dont compare human progress with pigeons.

another thinking out the box could be a good topic come on guys lets have your imput sean

birdy2011 wrote:

not sure if i can answer the pigeon side sean as ive only just got back after 14 year brake i have noticed more get treatments on a weekly basis are the birds better i dont know now as for athletes yes they are faster today but in the days gone by athletes boxers that went fifteen hard rounds not hugging and footballers who were proud to waer shirts for there country all had one thing in common they had to train hard and stick to the task in hand money didnt motivate them

now you put on ya shirt if ya miss the net of have a cold ya still paid

as for boxs not many can go the 12 rounds now al they do is hug each other

and not many stay champion of the world for more than 2 fights

Your right there G

Rudderfett wrote:

I feel that pigeons are not healthier today? when I was a kid I gave my birds con and water and never even heared of yb sickness, or any other sickness?
I think birds have got faster but only because of more intence and specialized breeding, years ago pigeons was a hobby and it was for fun you hardly ever won money or had websites selling pigeons for massive prices, everyone gave birds away not sold the crap they didnt want.
I believe that everyone breeds more pigeons races everyhting to death , and because of the intence competiotion they have improved the racing abilities.
Top pigeons dont die on the battle field as much either, if someone has a good winner on the contienent from a well known loft they advertise it on pippa and its sold for mega bucks...years ago they would have kept racing till they were gone, so they are now available for breeding better pigeons.

Good points Martyn

seanl wrote:

some good answers no doubt about it as their arnt no right or wrong answers
so lets move it on a bit furher
if you look at the great jesse owens he was a coloured kid from basically the getto sheer dedication and natural abilty proved how good he was i honestly believe athleetes nower days do not have the hunger to achieve some use aids to improve performances where as i honestly believe owens with the things that are known now and faciltys would still be a great just like zarapek footballers never will this country see the likes of a charlton best denis law or jim baxter and these guys would certainly prove there tallents on any stage in the new world of sport there will never be a substitute for abilty
look at your speed pigeons look at sprint athleets they built for speed and power over short bursts very simular things to look at more food for thought sean

Spot on Seanl same with long distance runners small light carry no weight and same wiith long distance birds small to smallish carry no weight JMO

Gaz b wrote:

to explain it more detail would take hours, so here's a quick synopsis.

Merc vs Porsche syndrome

I think the build of a racing pigeon and feeding go hand in hand.
Lets use cars for an instance.
A big Mercedes and a Porsche.
The big merc we know is a reliable car through all weathers, very rarely breaks down and the engine is good for over a million miles.
But to fuel it we have to use a fuel with a heavier oil content to make it run properly, the merc can attain great speeds but takes a while to get there, but you would know that the merc will always get from a to b.
If this merc was a pigeon you would have to fill it with feed with a much higher oil content to fuel it, plus it has a good well built body to store reserve energy in.
Now the porsche due to its size can get from a to b much quicker, but you have to fuel it on a much higher octane fuel it can attain high speeds in seconds but uses its fuel at a much quicker rate, in bad weather high winds it becomes much slower but still uses the same amount of amount of fuel, because its body is much smaller it cannot store as much reserve fuel as the merc and therefore needs to refuel somehow.
If this was a small pigeon the principles would be the same, the fuel would be a feed high in carbohydrates grains that would digest quickly and turned instantly into Glycogen this is the fuel for flight for the pigeon which enables the smaller bird to fly quickly at higher speeds, get the feeding wrong and it will run out fuel.
It is possible to speed up the bigger pigeon by using a high a carb mix, but you cannot really successfully slow a fast pigeon down and still make it fly competitively.

Full throtle Gaz

VanReet Man123 wrote:

Good pigeons that are fed rite and on a system that suits you and the birds will work we had a 16,year break and the only difference were the feed we got the same birds the Van Reets and some other strains and we have more than held our own its all about enjoying your racing.

Good point VRM

seanl wrote:

Rudderfett wrote:

I was once told by a good fancier that there is a real problem comparing pigeons with humans, I think you cannot compare the 2 no one can argue that humans have moved on in sport, but this shouldnt be taken into pigeon racing.
Firstly you cannot make pigeons do things they dont want to do, a human motivated will train hard because he wants to, and has the ability to make rational decissions.
Pigeons unlike humans would rather stay in the loft, and not fly home in all weathers influanced by wind and drag.
Also humans can take on fluids and energy as they are in the middle of exercise, tennis players play for hours but constantly refresh by eating bannanas and drinking high energy drinks, so do long distance runners and footballers and rugby players.
Pigeons fly on reserves built up in thier bodies and put there by the fancier, a totally different set of rules, so dont compare human progress with pigeons.

another thinking out the box could be a good topic come on guys lets have your imput sean

Will second that

must say a lot is to do with the way we feed our birds today compared to the heavy beans and peas of yesteryear

JMO

Plus there is a lot more on specialist racing at serton distances compared to same pigeons flying from the first to the last race at different distances

LMO again

To feed properly you must have a good working knowledge of the pigeons anatomy and how certain things work, how food is digested and absorbed.
many fanciers believe if you feed a high fat diet then the birds will get fat, protein creates muscle, and carbohydrate creates energy.
in the pigeons body certain organs do specific jobs, in fact the insides of a pigeon is quite primitive.
During breeding what feed would you say is most beneficial to your birds and why.
A high fat diet?
A high protein diet?
A High Carb Diet?

id say a high fat one as then there is a chance the parents birds will get something out of the feed as well as the younguns and fats help the body absorb the vitamis A ,E,and K preventing deficiencies of them

Look at the mix I gave ya pete, think again.

Gaz b wrote:

Look at the mix I gave ya pete, think again.

thats me all over bottom of the class