Yes or No, which is best

Just read a topic on another website, about a neighbour of mine , inquiring about single tossing etc "Short answer" a total waste of time in my view in my area. Reason !!!!!! At least once a week I always gave my birds a mob toss 8000/10,000 birds early in the season covering an area of over 2000 square miles. Splits them up no end I would have to say, & so no need for single tossing etc ????.
Any thought's one way or the other . In relation to what you all think is best.
*****

Wouldn't single toss birds myself at minimum 2 birds up that way there racing each other home

depends  for what you require long didtance ide say yes sprint save ya time

i would,nt either..they have got to be up in 2s or 3s..

I think single tossing birds a few times is a great idea and did this a few times this OB season as birds were getting hit by bop when released in a group but will be in groups of 6 with ybs ..single tossing gives confidence to the bird especialy unraced birds jmo

personaly i think in todays climate its not safe, too many hawks looking for an easy meal, and any way pigeons dont wait for the slow ones, they will go it on there own any way, its very rare that you get 2 birds together at one loft at the distance, although i have done it in the past.

does single tossin make them use their brain ? instead of bein a follower.....?

2,000 sq miles feck me that is a big area lol good luck .

David wrote:

does single tossin make them use their brain ? instead of bein a follower.....?

pigeons live in flocks, they much prefer to have company,wether they are leading or following, given the chance they will stick with another.

David wrote:

does single tossin make them use their brain ? instead of bein a follower.....?

I don't realy know but I train birds single up from what I deem the breaking point from the main pack on a race day and have to say doing this have noticed my birds homing better as a team ...this being 25 mile tosses singled up.

Knackered wrote:

Just read a topic on another website, about a neighbour of mine , inquiring about single tossing etc "Short answer" a total waste of time in my view in my area. Reason !!!!!! At least once a week I always gave my birds a mob toss 8000/10,000 birds early in the season covering an area of over 2000 square miles. Splits them up no end I would have to say, & so no need for single tossing etc ????.
Any thought's one way or the other . In relation to what you all think is best.
*****

Thyat will make them use there brains no wrong in that

Delboy74 wrote:

Wouldn't single toss birds myself at minimum 2 birds up that way there racing each other home

Will agree 110% Delboy

peel bros wrote:

i would,nt either..they have got to be up in 2s or 3s..

Spot on Ray as aways mate

oldstrain wrote:

I think single tossing birds a few times is a great idea and did this a few times this OB season as birds were getting hit by bop when released in a group but will be in groups of 6 with ybs ..single tossing gives confidence to the bird especialy unraced birds jmo

Spot on Daz that will sort the wheat from the shaft mate

oldstrain wrote:

David wrote:

does single tossin make them use their brain ? instead of bein a follower.....?

I don't realy know but I train birds single up from what I deem the breaking point from the main pack on a race day and have to say doing this have noticed my birds homing better as a team ...this being 25 mile tosses singled up.

I will agree with you Daz 110% mate

But for me to sort the wheat from the shaft train your birds all points of the compass as youngsters and train them hard by doing this you are making your birds work to get home and make them use there brain power

Thats were pigeons train in a corridor once blowen of cause are lost:study:

Don Webb wrote:

Knackered wrote:

Just read a topic on another website, about a neighbour of mine , inquiring about single tossing etc "Short answer" a total waste of time in my view in my area. Reason !!!!!! At least once a week I always gave my birds a mob toss 8000/10,000 birds early in the season covering an area of over 2000 square miles. Splits them up no end I would have to say, & so no need for single tossing etc ????.
Any thought's one way or the other . In relation to what you all think is best.
*****

Thyat will make them use there brains no wrong in that

Don !!! another thing that makes them use there brains here as such, is that on a 4 year cycle we race a differant line each year. West, North west, North & North east. Each year we also race South from across Bass Strait etc which at times has been a bit of a grave yard one could say. Along with many tossing as an example 50 miles north on a sunday & 50 miles south on a saturday etc. We tend not to have what many here would term corridor racing which appears to be more your way of doing things. One thing with the 4 year cycle etc is !!!!!! that in many cases differant birds prefer differant lines & as such we tend to carry more birds, I would have to say. More so !!!! than the normal loft in your area, in my view.
PS, Interesting comments above etc by everyone, which all adds to the memory bank.
*****

kev d wrote:

2,000 sq miles feck me that is a big area lol good luck .

Kev !!!!!!!  that's only in the tossing arena "Hang on a minute"  I need to get my calculator for the racing side of things . 6400 sq miles is what I come up with when we get to the longer races etc "Something to think about" & in the middle of all that , we have a little Bay called Port Philip 1000 square miles etc of water, which at times depending on the wind/weather/line can play havoc with our birds.
*****

Many years ago "Old Hand" did an experiment with His family of pigeons and he used to single toss them all after he had prepared them for it.

When he first  began training his youngsters he took seasoned old birds with them and released them in similar numbers of young and old to make sure that the birds flocked together and the young went straight home with the old birds. (Not so Many Hawks around back then compared to now)

After which he singled up all his young birds whenever he could, he claimed that if you have a family of pigeons that are used to being singled up often from long distances then a few generations down the line the offspring take to it like a duck to water as it is in their DNA so to speak.

Wheras if you have a family of birds constantly trained in big flocks if you single their young up even a few miles (10 or 20) from home you will get a nasty shock when you get home with finding a lack of pigeons in the loft.

Nowadys it is foolish to train in large groups due to the Hawk problem, they will almost surely be hit, if you have 50 birds in a group of 1000 then you have saftey in numbers but if only you are training your own birds and let 50 go, then 99 times out of a 100 in many areas including here in the Algarve your birds WILL be hit and arriving for the next two days (if they come at all)

I personally now release groups of 5 or less, colour co ordinated and have next to no trouble with the blasted Hawks, the first time I broke this training pattern due to panicking about the heat from the sun  getting up and releasing 20 at once they arrived all day long and one didnt make it from 20 miles.
The birds had all been 60 miles, chucked in small groups many times  previously with NO problems and raced to 250 miles in their first year of life, to prep them for the distance in the future.

No prizes for guessing what had happened, my error of judgement caused a Hawk attack.
Good Pigeons Know where they are from the day they are born they do not need breaking points shown to them, some are far better navigators than others however and tossing in small groups makes them race each other a little harder for home but still leaves them feeling vulnerable so they come straight home.

The main gain though is your whole flock of birds is not so exposed to these awful Raptors and if any small group is unlucky to be hit then it affects only the 5 or less birds within that small group and does not instill terror into your whole flock.

Time is the enemy of many fanciers and they cannot stand in a field chucking pigeons for an hour or more, I would suggest only take birds training when you have nothing else to do that day or you can tell whoever (wife included) that you will be back when your back, lol.
Once you get the birds to the first race if you feed them right and get them away every week racing and you can supervise loft flying twice per day and make sure they fly at least 45 mins per time, you do not need to train them anymore as this causes more harm than good in many lofts risking your birds being harmed by Hawks or losing their form due to the Awful weather disrupting training.

spencerline wrote:

Many years ago "Old Hand" did an experiment with His family of pigeons and he used to single toss them all after he had prepared them for it.

When he first  began training his youngsters he took seasoned old birds with them and released them in similar numbers of young and old to make sure that the birds flocked together and the young went straight home with the old birds. (Not so Many Hawks around back then compared to now)

After which he singled up all his young birds whenever he could, he claimed that if you have a family of pigeons that are used to being singled up often from long distances then a few generations down the line the offspring take to it like a duck to water as it is in their DNA so to speak.

Wheras if you have a family of birds constantly trained in big flocks if you single their young up even a few miles (10 or 20) from home you will get a nasty shock when you get home with finding a lack of pigeons in the loft.

Nowadys it is foolish to train in large groups due to the Hawk problem, they will almost surely be hit, if you have 50 birds in a group of 1000 then you have saftey in numbers but if only you are training your own birds and let 50 go, then 99 times out of a 100 in many areas including here in the Algarve your birds WILL be hit and arriving for the next two days (if they come at all)

I personally now release groups of 5 or less, colour co ordinated and have next to no trouble with the blasted Hawks, the first time I broke this training pattern due to panicking about the heat from the sun  getting up and releasing 20 at once they arrived all day long and one didnt make it from 20 miles.
The birds had all been 60 miles, chucked in small groups many times  previously with NO problems and raced to 250 miles in their first year of life, to prep them for the distance in the future.

No prizes for guessing what had happened, my error of judgement caused a Hawk attack.
Good Pigeons Know where they are from the day they are born they do not need breaking points shown to them, some are far better navigators than others however and tossing in small groups makes them race each other a little harder for home but still leaves them feeling vulnerable so they come straight home.

The main gain though is your whole flock of birds is not so exposed to these awful Raptors and if any small group is unlucky to be hit then it affects only the 5 or less birds within that small group and does not instill terror into your whole flock.

Time is the enemy of many fanciers and they cannot stand in a field chucking pigeons for an hour or more, I would suggest only take birds training when you have nothing else to do that day or you can tell whoever (wife included) that you will be back when your back, lol.
Once you get the birds to the first race if you feed them right and get them away every week racing and you can supervise loft flying twice per day and make sure they fly at least 45 mins per time, you do not need to train them anymore as this causes more harm than good in many lofts risking your birds being harmed by Hawks or losing their form due to the Awful weather disrupting training.

Another interesting read etc I would have to say.The point I would like to make here is in relation the the hawk/falcon issue. We have had that problem for 100 years here & over time you do breed birds that have a 6th sense so to speak when trouble is about happen, re hawks/falcons, or one could say !!!!!! they have eyes in the back of there heads. Some of the stories that I have read into birds in utter panic when hit & going down or in all directions over there etc & the big losses is quite foreign to me I must say. Yes !! of course I have been hit "many times" but what tends to happen to me is, they will split when hit one or two may go to ground (late ones or hit) but the main group will just regroup & carry on as normal as if it's just part of the daily business. Now !!!!!! a little story I still remember from the past. One year I had a pigeon reported by a pigeon flyer (farmer) near a place called Victor Harbour around 400 miles away. We had a good chat when I rang him as you do when have a common interest etc & it got around to the hawk/falcon issue. Yes he said !!!!!! I tend to have a bit of a problem in that area. Last year I trapped & killed 150 of them. :lol!:I then said yes !!! :roll:I would say that is a bit of a problem . Now back to the pigeon of mine he had, my words were give it a few days rest then just chuck it up "Thinking" it would save me a trip/expense etc & I would never see it again "Wrong" day after it turned up & little did she know I new where she had been.
*****

I agree that Hawks have always been around in history but not as many as Today. This being the case back in the day the hawks (because they were natural in numbers) Had plenty natural food in songbirds etc to live off.
They have eaten most of the song birds so now they live of the pigeons. It is the same here in the Algarve with over protection upsetting the balance of nature.
The other problem here is in many of the valleys through the mountains where the birds must go through are full or electricity pylons for miles to see and when the raptor attacks the birds in their panick plough in to the wires due to not seeing them in time.

As you say pigeons are on the look out for predators that is whay they have eyes in the sides or their heads so they have a wide angle of vision rather than binocular vision like a raptor but they are more alert in a smaller group and more difficult for a raptor to spot due to the difference in the way the different species of bird see.
Anyway Here in Portugal at least what I have said is proven to be true every time the pigeons go on a training toss. Usually if a bird makes it back half eaten one or two others come back with broken legs from hitting wires in blind terror.
All this has stopped with simply tossing in small groups 5 mins apart colour coordinated. It take a bit more effort but it is well worthwile.

I have come to the conclusion that no matter what you do with pigeons, single toss, train with others, early morning , late at night, you can give them 1 race or 20 races, all these things to me make no difference, tried everything and seems I get the same answer.
Talent, if its a good pigeon it will come home, escape the falcon and win the race.

25 years ago we would have a team of around 25 no darkness no meds no hawks and ya would get 90% to the last race for us it was perth 257 what didnt make it on the day were there next morning how times have changed

as for todays losses no one knows what happens what we do know is hawks are a lot to do with it but when you read on sites where theres approx 30 people saying the are down y/b they cant be all hawk attacks its not possible

all this shit in space phone mast air polution all adds to it

pigeons aint no worse infact there better many time 500 miles plus on the day now and further so what is it i think it all stems back from bringing birds from belguim and what ever they had inthem at the time with them cortiszone was well known mess with meds you come unstuck just my opinion

Hawks can and do take, kill, injure or scare any bird, the good ones as well as the bad ones, Good birds go missing all the time, The 2009 Barcelona winner owned by John Halstead in the UK went missing on a short toss the next season.

Champion Breakaway went missing on a short flight. These birds did not just get lost, thousands go missing the world over each year and hawks are rife now. Some areas have worse problems than others but there are more around than ever before.

Why subject your whole flock of birds to an attack if you can put them up in small groups?
If you have a scouting party in military manouvers you dont send 100 guys to scout you send one or two because they have less chance of being seen. It is the same with our pigeons and if they are seen then only those few experience an attack. The birds are more wary too as they feel more vulnerable in a small group so they are more vigilant looking for raptors.

Whatever works for different people in different places is great as long as it works.
What works every time for me here in Portugal now and for two seasons and loads of training tosses is small groups colour coordinated, the birds are unmolested by the hawks and arrive home in good time to rest till their evening loft flying (When we are training). On the two occasions that through my lazyness or poor judgement I have wavered from a winning formula the birds were hit both times and arrived over two days.

Stressed birds get sick especially young ones and birds that night out can bring sickness to their loft mates as you do not know where they have been,unless quarantined for many days.

Old Hand reckons he proved that his colony of birds learned to go straight up and after one of two circles strike for home when he singled them up and that the offspring found it easy right away.

Wheras when he tossed birds the same way for a friend it was another story. I dont know about that but he sure knew a lot about pigeons.
Everyone has got to do their own thing but The statistics I have on our birds here in the Algarve prove beyond even the slightest doubt what I MUST do during the pre season training to give our birds the best chance of getting fit and sharp for the season ahead without throwing them away.

Knackered wrote:

Just read a topic on another website, about a neighbour of mine , inquiring about single tossing etc "Short answer" a total waste of time in my view in my area. Reason !!!!!! At least once a week I always gave my birds a mob toss 8000/10,000 birds early in the season covering an area of over 2000 square miles. Splits them up no end I would have to say, & so no need for single tossing etc ????.
Any thought's one way or the other . In relation to what you all think is best.
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It makes no difference what anyone thinks knackered,it has been proved by lerwick and barcelona specilists over many many years here,single tossing certainly worked,but wether it can give the birds the higher vels they need to win nowadys is a different matter.

I agree with all whats been said, I didn't mean talented birds always avoid being killed by perigrines, Im suffering more than most for losses due to attaks and I have had brilliant birds go missing from 20 mile tosses same as everyone.
The point I was trying to make is that all outside forces which we put apon the birds like where, when you train how many tosses and single double or mass libs makes no difference in the scheme of things just plain old good birds talented birds are what counts.
We are of secondary importance, provided training and feeding and health are all good, which most people have sorted these days.