Yes or No, which is best

Rudderfett wrote:

I agree with all whats been said, I didn't mean talented birds always avoid being killed by perigrines, Im suffering more than most for losses due to attaks and I have had brilliant birds go missing from 20 mile tosses same as everyone.
The point I was trying to make is that all outside forces which we put apon the birds like where, when you train how many tosses and single double or mass libs makes no difference in the scheme of things just plain old good birds talented birds are what counts.
We are of secondary importance, provided training and feeding and health are all good, which most people have sorted these days.

I agree that extra talented birds can defy winds and conditions whatever you throw at them but they are one in a thousand, equally any bird can win a race when in shape and great health and most importantly in a form cycle and motivated and this helps the team effort in your race season.
And taking away or limiting dangers gives you the best chance to compete at a higher level throughout a whole season at all distances.

spencerline wrote:

Many years ago "Old Hand" did an experiment with His family of pigeons and he used to single toss them all after he had prepared them for it.

When he first  began training his youngsters he took seasoned old birds with them and released them in similar numbers of young and old to make sure that the birds flocked together and the young went straight home with the old birds. (Not so Many Hawks around back then compared to now)

After which he singled up all his young birds whenever he could, he claimed that if you have a family of pigeons that are used to being singled up often from long distances then a few generations down the line the offspring take to it like a duck to water as it is in their DNA so to speak.

Wheras if you have a family of birds constantly trained in big flocks if you single their young up even a few miles (10 or 20) from home you will get a nasty shock when you get home with finding a lack of pigeons in the loft.

Nowadys it is foolish to train in large groups due to the Hawk problem, they will almost surely be hit, if you have 50 birds in a group of 1000 then you have saftey in numbers but if only you are training your own birds and let 50 go, then 99 times out of a 100 in many areas including here in the Algarve your birds WILL be hit and arriving for the next two days (if they come at all)

I personally now release groups of 5 or less, colour co ordinated and have next to no trouble with the blasted Hawks, the first time I broke this training pattern due to panicking about the heat from the sun  getting up and releasing 20 at once they arrived all day long and one didnt make it from 20 miles.
The birds had all been 60 miles, chucked in small groups many times  previously with NO problems and raced to 250 miles in their first year of life, to prep them for the distance in the future.

No prizes for guessing what had happened, my error of judgement caused a Hawk attack.
Good Pigeons Know where they are from the day they are born they do not need breaking points shown to them, some are far better navigators than others however and tossing in small groups makes them race each other a little harder for home but still leaves them feeling vulnerable so they come straight home.

The main gain though is your whole flock of birds is not so exposed to these awful Raptors and if any small group is unlucky to be hit then it affects only the 5 or less birds within that small group and does not instill terror into your whole flock.

Time is the enemy of many fanciers and they cannot stand in a field chucking pigeons for an hour or more, I would suggest only take birds training when you have nothing else to do that day or you can tell whoever (wife included) that you will be back when your back, lol.
Once you get the birds to the first race if you feed them right and get them away every week racing and you can supervise loft flying twice per day and make sure they fly at least 45 mins per time, you do not need to train them anymore as this causes more harm than good in many lofts risking your birds being harmed by Hawks or losing their form due to the Awful weather disrupting training.

Spot on Kev and very interesting read

spencerline wrote:

Hawks can and do take, kill, injure or scare any bird, the good ones as well as the bad ones, Good birds go missing all the time, The 2009 Barcelona winner owned by John Halstead in the UK went missing on a short toss the next season.

Champion Breakaway went missing on a short flight. These birds did not just get lost, thousands go missing the world over each year and hawks are rife now. Some areas have worse problems than others but there are more around than ever before.

Why subject your whole flock of birds to an attack if you can put them up in small groups?
If you have a scouting party in military manouvers you dont send 100 guys to scout you send one or two because they have less chance of being seen. It is the same with our pigeons and if they are seen then only those few experience an attack. The birds are more wary too as they feel more vulnerable in a small group so they are more vigilant looking for raptors.

Whatever works for different people in different places is great as long as it works.
What works every time for me here in Portugal now and for two seasons and loads of training tosses is small groups colour coordinated, the birds are unmolested by the hawks and arrive home in good time to rest till their evening loft flying (When we are training). On the two occasions that through my lazyness or poor judgement I have wavered from a winning formula the birds were hit both times and arrived over two days.

Stressed birds get sick especially young ones and birds that night out can bring sickness to their loft mates as you do not know where they have been,unless quarantined for many days.

Old Hand reckons he proved that his colony of birds learned to go straight up and after one of two circles strike for home when he singled them up and that the offspring found it easy right away.

Wheras when he tossed birds the same way for a friend it was another story. I dont know about that but he sure knew a lot about pigeons.
Everyone has got to do their own thing but The statistics I have on our birds here in the Algarve prove beyond even the slightest doubt what I MUST do during the pre season training to give our birds the best chance of getting fit and sharp for the season ahead without throwing them away.

Interesting reading Kev

Here in the midlands there was a fancier of the name Roy Jones he had a family of grizzled which came from a fancier in Scotland

This fancier didn't race pigeons but was a lorry driver like Roy all he did was take his pigeons with him and singled them up from anywhere in the country what made it home were kept the ones that didn't make it were forgot about

Roy obtained this family of pigeons by accident he had a grizzle enter his loft reported it and the fancier transferred it to Roy that pigeon won 3 first and topped the fed when he rang the fancier the said news was he was unwell and had to get rid of his birds and offered Roy a few pairs which he had
Them pigeons won from the word go in club, fed and open races

AS I KNOW NOTHING I will put my neck on the line here I see no wrong with training bird all the points of the compose so they Re made to work there rains rather than train from the same point

I have seen fanciers train south route all week and send there birds racing from the north route and win

Think about that then

Don Webb wrote:

AS I KNOW NOTHING I will put my neck on the line here I see no wrong with training bird all the points of the compose so they Re made to work there rains rather than train from the same point

I have seen fanciers train south route all week and send there birds racing from the north route and win

Think about that then

Don !!!!!! , If I have learnt anything in my time in this hobby/sport etc, it is !!!!. It's full of contradictions, one could quite easily quote a long list of standards/theories/methods etc who many would die by the sword for, as if they were the only way to the top so to speak. All could be blown out of the water , without much trouble in my view by someone/somewhere. Unfortunately for the new generation (if there is such a thing) they can in a very short time become totally confused/bewildered & frustrated, because of the way things are. Which at the end of the day, is not helping our great sport sadly.

I think the best thing for any new starters is to think things through themselves first and just use common sense. Finding good pigeons is the luck of the draw at first, we are all always looking for them.

Think of the birds like athletes and training in any direction and in any wind as just training. If the wind is against the bird then the training is harder.

The new fancier will soon find out if tossing in a large group is viable by the way the birds arrive home from training and if thats not working then they can try smaller groups. (What they must achieve is simple,all the birds home in the loft resting asap) Not out all day arriving in dribs and drabs bringing stress and sickness home with them!

I have from my own experiences with pigeons over the years realised that we can show them nothing by training them, they have proven to me that they already know where they live and if they like where they live they will do their best to come back. If we motivate them right they will come back a bit quicker.

New fanciers must make their own minds up but Logic says that good birds know where they live from day one.  I mean we take them to places they have never been all the time  to race them and they come home (usually) We never take them 600 miles or more training yet they make it home ok from far longer distances than they have ever been before.

Never be afraid to try new things if they are logical as you may discover something missed by others. Do not let others dictate what can and cannot be achieved, if something is not working for you then its simple give something else a try.

spencerline wrote:

I think the best thing for any new starters is to think things through themselves first and just use common sense. Finding good pigeons is the luck of the draw at first, we are all always looking for them.

Think of the birds like athletes and training in any direction and in any wind as just training. If the wind is against the bird then the training is harder.

The new fancier will soon find out if tossing in a large group is viable by the way the birds arrive home from training and if thats not working then they can try smaller groups. (What they must achieve is simple,all the birds home in the loft resting asap) Not out all day arriving in dribs and drabs bringing stress and sickness home with them!

I have from my own experiences with pigeons over the years realised that we can show them nothing by training them, they have proven to me that they already know where they live and if they like where they live they will do their best to come back. If we motivate them right they will come back a bit quicker.

New fanciers must make their own minds up but Logic says that good birds know where they live from day one.  I mean we take them to places they have never been all the time  to race them and they come home (usually) We never take them 600 miles or more training yet they make it home ok from far longer distances than they have ever been before.

Never be afraid to try new things if they are logical as you may discover something missed by others. Do not let others dictate what can and cannot be achieved, if something is not working for you then its simple give something else a try.

Kev that has to be one of the best comments posted good common sense for one and all to understand spot on mate

spencerline wrote:

Rudderfett wrote:

I agree with all whats been said, I didn't mean talented birds always avoid being killed by perigrines, Im suffering more than most for losses due to attaks and I have had brilliant birds go missing from 20 mile tosses same as everyone.
The point I was trying to make is that all outside forces which we put apon the birds like where, when you train how many tosses and single double or mass libs makes no difference in the scheme of things just plain old good birds talented birds are what counts.
We are of secondary importance, provided training and feeding and health are all good, which most people have sorted these days.

I agree that extra talented birds can defy winds and conditions whatever you throw at them but they are one in a thousand, equally any bird can win a race when in shape and great health and most importantly in a form cycle and motivated and this helps the team effort in your race season.
And taking away or limiting dangers gives you the best chance to compete at a higher level throughout a whole season at all distances.

yes training in small groups is the way forward I think...I also release colour co-ordinated and let the mealys pieds and reds go together and last to go aswell...sounds daft I know but it works for me

Knackered wrote:

Don Webb wrote:

AS I KNOW NOTHING I will put my neck on the line here I see no wrong with training bird all the points of the compose so they Re made to work there rains rather than train from the same point

I have seen fanciers train south route all week and send there birds racing from the north route and win

Think about that then

Don !!!!!! , If I have learnt anything in my time in this hobby/sport etc, it is !!!!. It's full of contradictions, one could quite easily quote a long list of standards/theories/methods etc who many would die by the sword for, as if they were the only way to the top so to speak. All could be blown out of the water , without much trouble in my view by someone/somewhere. Unfortunately for the new generation (if there is such a thing) they can in a very short time become totally confused/bewildered & frustrated, because of the way things are. Which at the end of the day, is not helping our great sport sadly.

Your right there knackered

Here is something interesting or you and true, I always school the youngsters with 2/3 really short tosses to get them used to coming home, then usually they get 10/12 tosses up to 40 miles, works well, you loose half the birds by the first race but they are ready.

Last year for personal reasons I started too late then when I had given the birds only 1 short toss, the rain came before I knew it and it was 2 week till racing.
I was stuck as it rained nearly every day just managed to get 4 tosses in up to 20 miles then first race.

Here is the thing I lost fewer birds simply because they hardly went anywhere, more tosses more losses???
Sent 46 to the first race the most I have ever had left and got 36 back?
The year before with 12 tosses I managed to get only 27 to the first race.

Im not saying you could do this all the time I was lucky the first race which was 90 miles was a good one, but makes you think maybe you simply loose the rubbish no matter what training you do and are left with he talented good birds.

I do believe if left alone by perigrines well exercised birds could be lifted from the loft to the first race without training, I might even try it next year with a few and see if my theory is right, pigeons which are fit are capable of flying for quite some time, our first race they could fly in 2 hours.

Now I have had baby pigeons first time out of the loft who were a bit strong take off the loft because they were scared by something, and then go on to fly around lost all day.
And that's an unfit bird that's never flown before and has come back after a few days knackered but ok, so flying 2 hours in theory should be no problem.

Martyn I see no wrong with that method but every fancier is different mate I know fanciers who don't train after the first race just allow the birds to exercise round home

But you hit the nail on the head when you say healthy pigeons that's the main thing mate your spot on there

For me if you train your birds at least up to 60miles before the first race then after that race just exercise round the loft then train them twice a week short only 10 to 15 miles that for me should be fine but only if your birds are fit and healthy and exercising round home well

But " I Know Nothing"