breeding better pigeons

hi kev, i hope it settles your mind and gives you some outcome to base your opinions on, but eyesign men such as jack barkel have studied all aspects of eyesign over their lifetime and still cant say for definate what eyesign means....



this reply you gave in a previous post is;

Olympic athletes and footballers have many people picking and deciding when and where or if they will play and these people choosing them have never competed at the highest level of sport but can find people who can compete.


but the above athletes arnt chosen by a coach looking at their eyes is it.......ive seen lizards with excellent looking eyes but they cant fly and win races, also as ive said before a lot of fantails have excellent eyes but couldnt race home from even 10 miles.

not knocking your theory and look forward to your findings.....

[quote="
Why should you moddycoddle birds,and why would you think the cream will rise to the top,no way mate,the birds that adjust fast enough will usually get results in the 1st season,if you could continue through their yearling stage,2/3/4/5/6/7 year olds would probable tell you a totally different story.[/quote]

My main interest is birds that will mature quickly and deliver in their early years rather than wait for 5 years for a possible card. As you know it is Very expensive to keep pigeons nowadays and I have 500 of them.

So to my way of thinking that suits me and my situation things are gonna be done by process of elimination, the birds are getting and will continue to get the very best of food and vitamins etc, and in 2013 those birds from the EYESIGN pairs will join the party, bred from entirely different stock and even then their parents will have been picked from 130 different Random choices.

They will not only race against Thousands of other pigeons every week but they will also race againdt there own loftmates bred from performance to performance birds. And these have been bred over 4 years. The older birds ought to outperform the yearlings.
We will see or I will see and I will catalogue my findings, Kev

kev, a couple of years ago i intentianally paired certain pairs on eyesign alone, the ybs were no good and did nothing, so was this that eyesign is not to be beleived, or that the pigeons were no good....?

David wrote:

hi kev, i hope it settles your mind and gives you some outcome to base your opinions on, but eyesign men such as jack barkel have studied all aspects of eyesign over their lifetime and still cant say for definate what eyesign means....



...

Lol Hi David, Jack Barkel is Jack Barkel and I am Me but Barkle believed in eyesign enough to make his breeding pairings. His system was too complicated if you ask me and as I say I am in a position to really test eyesign against performance breeding with top quality pigeons against each other years of strong loft mates bred by performance birds to performance birds and thousands of federation pigeons.

This is Systems Analisys and I will convince at least myself by the end of 2013 Nuff said. Kev

David wrote:

kev, a couple of years ago i intentianally paired certain pairs on eyesign alone, the ybs were no good and did nothing, so was this that eyesign is not to be beleived, or that the pigeons were no good....?

Hi David , as I say I do not profess to be an eyesign expert but were the birds from a hardworking consistant winning family? Kev

well as you know kev, most fanciers think their birds are good.....lol, the birds in question were bred off stock which i bought, but as we know the birds they are going to compete against will also have supposed proved pedigrees and maybe reasonable eyesign...........but as we all know there are more things to consider than just a good looking eye, for example loft management, a fancier could have the best winning pigeons in the world, but if he doesnt manage them correctly they wont win.

David wrote:

well as you know kev, for example loft management, a fancier could have the best winning pigeons in the world, but if he doesnt manage them correctly they wont win.

Exactly my position and my point, I have spent a few thousand on birds I have brought to Portugal the young will begin to race in March , not these old birds I am pairing up via the eye but as you corectly say, all the eyesign in the world will not make a bird win unless it is managed correctly or unless it is subjected to the same regime as 2 thousand other birds in a one loft race. Kev

spencerline wrote:

David wrote:

kev, a couple of years ago i intentianally paired certain pairs on eyesign alone, the ybs were no good and did nothing, so was this that eyesign is not to be beleived, or that the pigeons were no good....?

Hi David , as I say I do not profess to be an eyesign expert but were the birds from a hardworking consistant winning family? Kev

right heres my take on this, if davids pigeons werent consistent but had good eyes then surely the eyes arent enough alone to have made them good? it relies also on body structure and how many previous generations have scored?

kev, what is your opinion on the developement of yb eyesign, do you think the eye is not fully developed until the adult stage ie yearling or two year old.....?

if so at what age would you considerit possible to consider the eye for breeding purposes...?

alex wrote:

spencerline wrote:

David wrote:

kev, a couple of years ago i intentianally paired certain pairs on eyesign alone, the ybs were no good and did nothing, so was this that eyesign is not to be beleived, or that the pigeons were no good....?

Hi David , as I say I do not profess to be an eyesign expert but were the birds from a hardworking consistant winning family? Kev

right heres my take on this, if davids pigeons werent consistent but had good eyes then surely the eyes arent enough alone to have made them good? it relies also on body structure and how many previous generations have scored?

i think youve raised a good point alex, i once asked jack barkel , does pairing by eyesign alter the build/structure of the offsprings and future offspring ie grandchildren, g grandchildren etc.

he said by using eyesign it does alter the structure so therefore you need to know what changes it will bring about when pairing certain types of eye togeather, for future generations.

alex wrote:

spencerline wrote:

David wrote:

kev, a couple of years ago i intentianally paired certain pairs on eyesign alone, the ybs were no good and did nothing, so was this that eyesign is not to be beleived, or that the pigeons were no good....?

Hi David , as I say I do not profess to be an eyesign expert but were the birds from a hardworking consistant winning family? Kev

right heres my take on this, if davids pigeons werent consistent but had good eyes then surely the eyes arent enough alone to have made them good? it relies also on body structure and how many previous generations have scored?

Hi Alex, there are birds with good eyes that are not good breeders but there seem to be no birds with poor eyes that are good breeders. So logic says good breeders have good eyes and you can narrow it down from a winning hard working family breed from the best eyes.

yes thats a similar thing to what i have heard, good pigeons never have a bad eye but bad pigeons can have a good eye which makes it hard also does a purple eye supposedly point to a good breeder?

David wrote:

kev, what is your opinion on the developement of yb eyesign, do you think the eye is not fully developed until the adult stage ie yearling or two year old.....?

if so at what age would you considerit possible to consider the eye for breeding purposes...?

I do not know so I am not qualified to say but My friend Myron who is an eyesign expert reckons that you can grade abird in the nest.

Alex wrote:

yes thats a similar thing to what i have heard, good pigeons never have a bad eye but bad pigeons can have a good eye which makes it hard also does a purple eye supposedly point to a good breeder?

Hi Alex apparently eye colour does not matter at all in picking a breder.

Interesting, its something that does intrigue me, the fact that a good pigeon doesnt have a bad eye but the trouble is i dont know the difference

the point you make about a good pigeon never having a bad eyesign alex, ive heard many times.......the thing which makes me think is that its easy to evaluate an eye with hindsight. ie knowing the bird has won, or bred winners.

thing is i looked into it a bit but didnt understand it if im honest as i didnt know what im looking for the pair that bred my best yb dont seem to have amazing eyes if i remember right so would be intresting to have a look at them properly and see

i think most pigeon men presume that just because some eyes are dark/.rich in colour with a big thick circle of corrilation....that it is a good eye, some eyes which look nothing and are devoid of any lines or mountainous ridges are better than they think.

eyes which are wishy washy and look week in the iris are by some considered to belong to birds with speed, but by others to belong to birds who will only win in a blow home or easy race.............

alot to think about in eyesign eh

i,m not bothered about eyes,like they say as long as they have 2, the basket sorts them out for me,do,nt get me wrong when i handle a bird i do look at the eye,i think most of us do but i do,nt really know what i,m lookinf for...i,ve had birds win with wild eyes and birds with beautifull coulered eyes but still do,nt know what the best ones are

i think part of it is down to personal likes and dislikes ray..........some might like a dark eye whereas some might like a "wild" light coloured iris with no lines or ridges.

David wrote:

alex wrote:

spencerline wrote:

David wrote:

kev, a couple of years ago i intentianally paired certain pairs on eyesign alone, the ybs were no good and did nothing, so was this that eyesign is not to be beleived, or that the pigeons were no good....?

Hi David , as I say I do not profess to be an eyesign expert but were the birds from a hardworking consistant winning family? Kev

right heres my take on this, if davids pigeons werent consistent but had good eyes then surely the eyes arent enough alone to have made them good? it relies also on body structure and how many previous generations have scored?

i think youve raised a good point alex, i once asked jack barkel , does pairing by eyesign alter the build/structure of the offsprings and future offspring ie grandchildren, g grandchildren etc.

he said by using eyesign it does alter the structure so therefore you need to know what changes it will bring about when pairing certain types of eye togeather, for future generations.

to be honest,i would take barkels"eyesign"with a pinch of salt,hes been groping in the dark for years,and has made himself look a fool on other forums,after we got him hook line and sinker he had the audacity to demand posts were changed to suit his typical inflated ego..ha.ha,just another in a long list

try watching a dvd on the subject i was never so bored that's why chris has them

If eyes is that good why dont theis eye men top the feds all the time, it not a case of good or bad eyes just look when you are shown the winners of races their is not many eyes the same but they are all winners

Alex wrote:

spencerline wrote:

David wrote:

kev, a couple of years ago i intentianally paired certain pairs on eyesign alone, the ybs were no good and did nothing, so was this that eyesign is not to be beleived, or that the pigeons were no good....?

Hi David , as I say I do not profess to be an eyesign expert but were the birds from a hardworking consistant winning family? Kev

right heres my take on this, if davids pigeons werent consistent but had good eyes then surely the eyes arent enough alone to have made them good? it relies also on body structure and how many previous generations have scored?

If the birds were being Linebred from a consistant winning family nearly all the bodies would be the same in any case. If you were outcrossing it would be a simple enough task to pair similar birds together. Common sense would say dont pair the biggest pigeons in the loft together but in any case good birds come in all colours, shapes and sizes.

It is my opinion that Eyesign is a good tool to help select the correct birds for breeding from a consistant hard working family (The key word being Family) and it has as much relevance if not more than pulling on their beaks or looking at the birds throats or body shapes, unless of course the fancier is linebreeding and he or she knows that a certain trait in a bird of his family has some significance in it.

Oh yes kev im not knocking it, just trying to get an understanding of it and how the eyes influence its ability to pass on the right genes to their offspring. Just im having trouble understanding what a good eye is and a bad one as there seems to be different views on what a certain eyes trait is.