Pigeons Tails up

He is a very good distance flyer from middlesborougj at least the one I know is

blueskylofts wrote:

edgie wrote:

As for John Romney you won't find them at his place

I might have been out of the country for a long time but - Who or What is John Romney?
Phil

Who or what Romney, Rumney . May I suggest Phil in a kind way, you google John Rumney etc who just happens to be a great mate of my Geordie mate down here & I think you will find he is a man, that has no time for corridor type pigeons, with the task he sets his pigeons in his little loft .

It's a small world knackerd you know a guy that knows John rumney and I know him personally and yet we live miles apart

Knackered wrote:

blueskylofts wrote:

edgie wrote:

As for John Romney you won't find them at his place

I might have been out of the country for a long time but - Who or What is John Romney?
Phil

Who or what Romney, Rumney . May I suggest Phil in a kind way, you google John Rumney etc who just happens to be a great mate of my Geordie mate down here & I think you will find he is a man, that has no time for corridor type pigeons, with the task he sets his pigeons in his little loft .

Thank you so much - I did Google John ROMNEY (spelling as in edgie's post) last night and didn't find anything - BUT, I have just Googled John RUMNEY (note the difference in spelling - rUmnet NOT rOmney) and found LOTS incuding this:- http://www.elimarpigeons.com/Rumney.htm - Cheers for that. I will read with interest later today.

Phil

edgie wrote:

It's a small world knackerd you know a guy that knows John rumney and I know him personally and yet we live miles apart

That's pigeons for you Steve No borders etc . My georgie mate here       grew up with John when he was on the allotments when they were both young & silly as such & they correspond quite often even today talking pigeon tripe .

They're the ones u want in a tail wind. They'll do 90mph with their tails up in the air

might have a point there boosey.........

I wonder if the tail up pigeons are the ones who go down when its a hard race......? do they only do well in easy blow home races...?

would be interesting to do a study on it.

David wrote:

might have a point there boosey.........

I wonder if the tail up pigeons are the ones who go down when its a hard race......?  do they only do well in easy blow home races...?

would be interesting to do a study on it.

Maybe so David except for the braking power they may have when the wind is up there backside etc I would just about be prepared to bet my house on it      that when the going got tough they would be found wanting in the distance type races in 99% of the cases.

thinking about it knackered, a fantail has a big silly tail which cant be any use at all for flying, obviously fantails arnt the best of flyers.....but what is it that distinguishes a racer from a fantail, the brain or the wings and big tail...?

David wrote:

thinking about it knackered, a fantail has a big silly tail which cant be any use at all for flying, obviously fantails arnt the best of flyers.....but what is it that distinguishes a racer from a fantail, the brain or the wings and big tail...?  

MMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmm Difficult question that one
David & remember I was not all that bright at school sadly, so I will punt for the tail .

OK - we have had quite a few comments regarding this 'Tail up' thing.

I understand now, that some people say it is a sign of a 'Weak Back'.

What I want to know now is:- Why does a bird holding its tail in a 'Upward' position mean it has a weak back. Where is the logical, physiological or anatomical reasoning behind that theory?

I would have thought - logically, it takes more effort on the part of the pigeon, to hold its tail UP, than it does to let it droop down. But people think that a 'Downward' facing tail is good!

Does anyone have real proof that:-

1. A bird with its tail UP has a weak back.

2. What significance does a weak back have on the pigeon?

AND - What is a 'Weak Back' anyway.

It is a anatomical fact, that, 35% of the total body weight of a pigeon is due to its Pectoralis and Supracoracoideus muscles. The former pull the wings down and the latter pull the wings up. There is no physiological reason why the muscles of the back, get involved to any great extent when the bird is flying.

Or are we saying that if a bird flies with its tail UP, it will cause more 'Drag'. If that is the case, then aerodynamically, if the tail is up, that would lift the bird's body up in relation to its flight path and cause more drag.

This is a little complicated, I know, but sometimes the truth is complicated.

There are a LOT of 'Old Wives tales' in pigeons, and I wonder if this tail up, thing is just another one of them.

Over to you guys now!

Phil

blueskylofts wrote:

OK - we have had quite a few comments regarding this 'Tail up' thing.

I understand now, that some people say it is a sign of a 'Weak Back'.

What I want to know now is:-  Why does a bird holding its tail in a 'Upward' position mean it has a weak back.  Where is the logical, physiological or anatomical reasoning behind that theory?

I would have thought - logically, it takes more effort on the part of the pigeon, to hold its tail UP, than it does to let it droop down.  But people think that a 'Downward' facing tail is good!

Does anyone have real proof that:-

1.  A bird with its tail UP has a weak back.

2.  What significance does a weak back have on the pigeon?

AND - What is a 'Weak Back' anyway.

It is a anatomical fact, that, 35% of the total body weight of a pigeon is due to its Pectoralis and Supracoracoideus muscles.  The former pull the wings down and the latter pull the wings up.  There is no physiological reason why the muscles of the back, get involved to any great extent when the bird is flying.

Or are we saying that if a bird flies with its tail UP, it will cause more 'Drag'.  If that is the case, then aerodynamically, if the tail is up, that would lift the bird's body up in relation to its flight path and cause more drag.

This is a little complicated, I know, but sometimes the truth is complicated.

There are a LOT of 'Old Wives tales' in pigeons, and I wonder if this tail up, thing is just another one of them.

Over to you guys now!

Phil

Thought provoking comments Phil above if you read my first post here, you would get the the gist that I'm not a believer in the weak back theory to a point etc . Basically if a pigeon has a weak back as such as many believe, how do they at times fly many more miles than those with a strong back & more than one would expect. That being said a trait I believe to be wary of & the final point is for me, if any one has read Jack Barkel's
writings at times on the subject, he basically thinks it's a load of bunkum     & one should just let the basket decide the outcome.

Knackered wrote:

blueskylofts wrote:

OK - we have had quite a few comments regarding this 'Tail up' thing.

I understand now, that some people say it is a sign of a 'Weak Back'.

What I want to know now is:-  Why does a bird holding its tail in a 'Upward' position mean it has a weak back.  Where is the logical, physiological or anatomical reasoning behind that theory?

I would have thought - logically, it takes more effort on the part of the pigeon, to hold its tail UP, than it does to let it droop down.  But people think that a 'Downward' facing tail is good!

Does anyone have real proof that:-

1.  A bird with its tail UP has a weak back.

2.  What significance does a weak back have on the pigeon?

AND - What is a 'Weak Back' anyway.

It is a anatomical fact, that, 35% of the total body weight of a pigeon is due to its Pectoralis and Supracoracoideus muscles.  The former pull the wings down and the latter pull the wings up.  There is no physiological reason why the muscles of the back, get involved to any great extent when the bird is flying.

Or are we saying that if a bird flies with its tail UP, it will cause more 'Drag'.  If that is the case, then aerodynamically, if the tail is up, that would lift the bird's body up in relation to its flight path and cause more drag.

This is a little complicated, I know, but sometimes the truth is complicated.

There are a LOT of 'Old Wives tales' in pigeons, and I wonder if this tail up, thing is just another one of them.

Over to you guys now!

Phil

Thought provoking comments Phil above if you read my first post here, you would get the the gist that I'm not a believer in the weak back theory to a point etc . Basically if a pigeon has a weak back as such as many believe, how do they at times fly many more miles than those with a strong back & more than one would expect. That being said a trait I believe to be wary of & the final point is for me, if any one has read Jack Barkel's
writings at times on the subject, he basically thinks it's a load of bunkum     & one should just let the basket decide the outcome.

At the end of the day Ozz - there is only one way to tell if a pigeon is any good for what we want of it - and you hit the nail right on the head - it is the BASKET. NO eye theory, NO wing theory and NO tail theory. The only theory that works, is the FEET theory - and that is - the first FEET through the trap.

However, keep your replies rolling in.
Phil