Over Crowding

'... Good Post F/W … but no lol. No need to say more, except maybe you should consider the mentality of why I state as such, and also the reasoning . .. you will be surprised I believe.

I have often asked what is 'Overcrowding' to many that state it is a reason for such losses! Never had an answer outside of 'Its obviously' or maybe 'Would you like to live in an overcrowded house'? A. I'm not a pigeon and B. again many, very many people have and do live in hovels. However, they thrive! Indeed do great!

No!  no one will explain - Sadly I realise that they can't, nor won't be able to point any facts! Not least because none exist.
Look around at others lofts!
I have seen very many, in fact, a vast amount of lofts with a 3rd extra shelving, loads of room suffer year in and year out with devastating losses and empty perches. Not least from lofts that excel in races.

However, the fact is simple. 'I've never seen a so-called 'Over Crowded loft suffer high losses. Look around and see for your selves.

Another great, and purposeful benefit, is if a pigeon goes down ill. ALL are treated at once! Though of course most times not all suffer... (Immunity) Hence quickly remedied and sorted ... Now UNDER CROWDED lofts seem to have a never-ending burden of one or another going down after another constantly... even ruin a season!

Gosh, one can remember little lofts having a so-called more than a share of inmates that thrived every year. Indeed wasn't it the case, come seasons end deciding what to keep!
Seems, yet again, fanciers meddling in what is the norm and natures way, pay the price...  Will one ever learn I ask? Maybe not. lol  

ive far too many pigeons, I would be happy keeping half of them........a local pigeon "friend" has said he will take some, so I just need to have a sort out.

I think we can devoted better quality time to the ones we have in smaller numbers, rather than struggle with too many bird, I personally cannot do large numbers justice.

Over crowding:-
More people are located within a given space that is considered unacceptable from a safety and health point of view.

So irrespective of what animal is involved there will always be a limit before overcrowding is apparent.


You can keep a thousand pigeons in a loft that is suitable and a dozen in an orange box that is not.


There is no hard and fast rule to numbers but there is to space, along in our sport with being able to give attention to individuals rather than trust to luck and flock treatments etc;



Regards.

A very good fancier Barry - now sadly passed on, sat me to onside - we and mine went back years. Indeed he had his first pigeons free from my dad that set him up.
He made reasoning like David's to me. He said our families - he had eight siblings, and I had same - have done pretty well. He was the managing director of a company... outside of his two years call up. It was the only place he worked. He is starting part-time at 13 years of age.
'Now boy' he said smiling and rubbing his hands 'If our parents had had only one or two kids to rear, they could have afforded better clothing food and MORE time and Love to each... However, they did as well as they could, and we accept and appreciate that likewise with our birds'!

It made sense in a human perspective. However, birds are not human! They ARE pigeons! His family fared well too, many rising to high favour. Mine also. Girls and brother were going to uni. One an owner of a big car company. Me high in Tesco Management. etc. Indeed all have fared well. Well, they are surpassing the ones from the one or two kid families. Was it, is it the drive to attain and better one's self? Strive to reach a … Strive for a goal!

Barry was arguably the very best Fed flyer... especially at a distance and hard days.! Challenged probably by his nephew at one time.
As I later pointed out, Barry had a two apartment loft. One for youngsters the other for old birds flown naturally except for two seasons. he tried widowerhood. His birds by today's standards would be well and truly 'Over Crowded'! Yes, EVERY season birds had to make room. Indeed regardless of past performances, no bird ever kept after four years of age. Never entertained a stock loft!
It was always as such until his passing nearing three years back.
He would put grit between nest boxes... no sides! So all could see each other always. They would and could share 'Carefully' grit and little blocks of wood that they would snatch and bring into their' nests.

So the very best sharpening of the pigeons' environment was kept at a 'High'. The protecting of their territory. The pecking order.
I have to say, with no intention of lessening others, I miss Barry and his death more than anyone else's I've had to know!

Just as with any living thing you have various capabilities with that which is involved.


In humans genetics do not know how wealthy the parents are it is all a matter of chance.


How those genes produce intelligence is also chance, what is not chance is how ones parents help or hinder their offspring, exactly the same with pigeons or any other animal.


I was one of six children, father a miner, my eldest brother was the chief production engineer for the NCB
having gone to day release then college then university to gain all the qualifications, my sister was a teacher at Scarborough College, my younger brother a Post Office engineer, my young sister had a handicapped daughter and gave her 24 hours a day attention for over 40 years and died a fortnight after her daughter, my younger brother worked for the council.


So I have seen a lot of what life throws at you and the way one deals with it.


For myself I have had many experiences that I would not have missed.


Tried two years down the mine, did not like it, joined the army, travelled to many countries and finished my education after opting out of Grammar School.


Worked for George Wimpy working the costs and bonuses out for 400 workmen, following a car accident I moved to Scarborough to be near my wife's parents.


Wimpy paid my salary for several months but I told them to stop because I could not see me being able to continue from Scarborough.


Took a job as weighman at a stone quarry that had three kilns for burning lime to flux the steel and for farmers.


I was on the salaried staffs list awaiting for something to come along, and it did, a small building firm wanted someone to look after the finances and I took the position and did so for over 30 years.


In between I did an intensive engineering course run by the Government, passed and did a years improving to get my Union membership.


Instead of being weighed down with heavy commitments and buying a big house and being in debt by worrying about meeting all the commitments I bought one I could afford.


Everything I buy I pay for fully no credit.


Would not have changed my life for anyone else's.



Not once have I been subjected to overcrowding, but have seen plenty.


Regards.

Very well said. Crux of the matter of over crowding is obviously space. To nest whatever. Solution? Do not know, other peoples ways. For me fly them. Regardless old or young. Keep the best eliminate the rest. Young birds second chances may be in order but yearlings and above no performance to justify keeping them eliminate. Pedigrees or whatever no matter. Meat pigeons. Person has to keep what he is comfortable with. Many fliers in this Fed send very many. Their choice. Appreciate the mob fliers. They basically pay the bills. Good for them. Just love it when I beat them! But not very often! As always, right bird on the right day.

halcanada wrote:

Very well said. Crux of the matter of over crowding is obviously space. To nest whatever. Solution? Do not know, other peoples ways. For me fly them. Regardless old or young. Keep the best eliminate the rest. Young birds second chances may be in order but yearlings and above no performance to justify keeping them eliminate. Pedigrees or whatever no matter. Meat pigeons. Person has to keep what he is comfortable with. Many fliers in this Fed send very many. Their choice. Appreciate the mob fliers. They basically pay the bills. Good for them. Just love it when I beat them! But not very often! As always, right bird on the right day.

I also mostly appreciate the mob/chook farmer types Hal etc But at the end of the day thou I suspect its a balancing act for all on average I suggest & what may suit some may just not sadly suit others in another area as such. My Fed here has some major, major issues to confront from my perspective to survive. But, unfortunately the head in the sand trick is in play at the moment for what I see by those in charge here on average .

So Mr Basket takes an inevitable hand. He tests the birds capabilities somewhat. Also gives a reason if not happy in the loft …. to move on! Pigeons lost from spacious lofts were / are... Whatever.

But by far a less percentage of losses in a loft regarded as over crowded its because of... Over crowding. Yeah right!

Have never known such an endless craze for buy pigeons young or stock. 150 fanciers in the 60's early 70's sent by far, yes by far a lot less pigeons each week.
But what really astounds me is the excuses made for the losses! Can't think for love or money what the next one will be after tampering yet again with their very nature.

theirs always a pecking order in the loft irrespective of style of nesting or indeed amount of pigeons in a loft ...its very easy to overcrowd with poor ventilation ok a disease may go through them quickly but you may also have one arrive quickly and basket for a race/toss and have big losses and wonder what happened..for me its a personal preference as to how many birds you want and how much care you want to give them ,I am scraper mad as my lofts are close to the house and don't like walking in piles of pooh ,it really is a personal matter how you keep yer pigeons and how many or indeed in what state but one things for sure good pigeons never seem to get ill

Oldstrain, your reply and others have merit regards 'System' to suit you / or one's self. That is a foregone conclusion.

However, though I take that on board - and always have the entitlement of such, Its more of an interest as to why the myth is so common and often use though bearing no reality of truth., or bearing! It is sprung willy - nilly now for a few years without one Iota of realism, let alone truth.
Indeed was unheard of and never thought of until some so-called 'Names'  asked for reasons and why losses were coming so prevalent! The first thing that they do is compare it in a human term. That always makes sense to most … though of course never to a logical conclusion to a thinker. Indeed it goes completely against the very makeup of our beloved birds.
Yes, a pecking order... just a never-ending happening and is IN regards of protecting territory. Though the essence, by virtue of their nature, to have proximity as they are a very gregarious bird!

In the definition for instance 'a popular and gregarious man.'
synonyms:
sociable · social · company-loving · companionable · convivial · clubbable · outgoing · friendly · affable · amiable · genial · congenial · cordial · hospitable · neighbourly ·(of animals) living in flocks or loosely organised communities.
"gregarious species forage in flocks from colonies or roosts."
synonyms:
social · organised · living in shoals/flocks/herds
(of plants) Growing in open clusters or pure associations.
Then to say that they need room etc., more room, say in the loft while the very happening constantly is 'Them getting as close to each other, being but a peck away!

In nature it is the survival of the fittest, and nature determines how many of any species survive.


Lemmings have their own method, as one example.


The availability of food and suitable habitat regulates most species, along with health issues, the latter mainly attributable to man.


When man takes charge of animals the fact that he cannot replicate nature 100% out goes the natural survival issues.


Do not understand the implication that the fancier having more pigeons loses less percentage wise.



Neve had a lot of pigeons and lost very few.



Know many fanciers in a similar position now.



Perhaps in a loft where pigeons have to fight for everything there will be a pecking order, where all the pigeons are content and know they have not to fight for anything, they fly for the love of the loft and the family of pigeons there in , family being the operative word, not having new pigeons in every two minutes upsetting the apple cart.


There is no way you can have a loft to full capacity involving large numbers without using flock treatments, would not believe it if I knew it was true.


Instead of thinking up means of defying Mother Nature the fancy would be better employed learning more about her.


Regards.

we once cleared a roof space above a café which had the park pigeons nesting in it I suppose it had to be at least 30ft x 20ft now theirs hundreds of park pigeons at this particular park and this café was opposite the said park I suppose their must of been about 12 pairs roughly nesting in the roof,would that be deemed as a natural amount for that space ,taking into consideration the park birds had chosen the space themselves ...how many wood pigeons nest in 1 tree ,I just don't get how anyone can say a certain amount is right or wrong but one things for sure is that poor ventilation and too many pigeons will give you a host of problems which I have seen for myself on numerous occasions ,if the ventilation is good then maybe more pigeons can be kept in the said space and of that I agree but all to often ybs are crammed in a small space and then fanciers wonder why they get problems and in turn blame the good old young bird sickness which is a british thing by the way as on the continent its called adeno/coli syndrome which is a mix of virus and bacteria overload but just because ybs are ill most fanciers say "oh I got the sickness" not even knowing what it is when in fact it could be something else ...hence the misuse of antibiotics and the $h1t we are in now with bacteria being resistant to them ,for me its much better to adopt mistys stance of having fewer birds and knowing them as individuals and always observe when you can ,this way nothing gets out of hand and if a birds off you will notice instantly jmo on it atb

Well stated.

Yes, good post-Oldstrain. Not just AIR, but Circulated air. We would let pigeons live and race to a tree … if we could time them in.

Can't quote surveyed numbers of course but to say very high, if not extremely high are the follow fanciers. Ones that will never ever overtake the leaders.

At least, I'd say 80% say and do what others do regardless. Because they believe it is the norm and right way to go. Easy, and to be frank - or earnest lol - I am happy for them. A. they are content and get great enjoyment from just having their beloved pigeons. (To be honest, I could well have been the same).They have an Odd swallow and think its a summer. ( All have a great tale or remember a yarn regards that 'Pigeon'.
80% don't know, or have intentions of knowing what and why they do such and such … except so and so said in an article that they did it as such! Mind most take just a thread and embellish it to suit …. Like truth to a con man. If there is, or there seems to be an element of reality, then it must be right …
80% breed pigeon numbers to LOSE them. Yes to combat losses! But they seldom rise to the top. Others will say that they have a significant advantage.
In a club, I was in 3 members sent 200 or more between them! They were actually with in a 200yard radius.

Drag! No, because a good pigeon breaks early … Or are we saying on the other foot Drag is because as a flock flying bird and love company? So they have an advantage!

I see on another site many whinging about losses. 3 from 30, 1 for 25 etc. etc.
Excuses abound! Were fit enough. Weather was cold, or misty etc. the transporter EEK!
Shouldn't have been let up etc.
Same but only worse than last season.

Haven't seen my reply if any asking if the first race in May wouldn't have been more sensible?

Would the not fit, both mentally or physically, have had a chance to become conditioned to race.
Many questions, but no answers... So when all the debates and ideas were mustered and debated last season's end Just who, or what changes were made! Simple answer NONE!
So if 100% do the same as last year, then obviously one must expect the same results. I know, 'Next season will be different'!

yes daz would be much better to commence racing early may...our mobs first race is 27th april ,not trained yet still loft flying ,they are doing about 30 mins at the moment but the hens come away tomorrow so may see them exercising more ,not really that fussed they do the 30mins with vigour,may start training next week see how the weather and temperatures pan out first ,if we don't make the first race its no bigggy but again depends on weather as we have 8 cocks and wont be throwing them away 4 yearlings and 3 two year olds and a 3 year old may even just race the 4 older ones for now ...have to be flexible in this game

Been suggested many times to look at strarting racing leter and also races on the day in short races but you always have those opposed to any change and that is why the sport has gone backwards instead of forwards.


Regards.

MISTY wrote:

Been suggested many times to look at strarting racing leter and also races on the day in short races but you always have those opposed to any change and that is why the sport has gone backwards instead of forwards.


Regards.  

Bunch of fool types I suggest Misty etc     maybe     those that will not bend when change is happening on the weather side aspect with our sport. One may like to stay as is but on a hiding to nothing from experience sadly, with how things have changed weather wise on average now for our pigeons.

60 km winds today but 18 C!!!! Cloudy. All old birds out stock also. Through the wind turbines to avoid one persistent falcon. He gave up. 3 hours later Cooper hawk tried them. Missed. Pigeons In and out for the eight hours loft was open as cocks took over from the hens. May 4 first race. Bad weather it will be cancelled. Too many fliers cannot afford to lose expensive pigeons. Winners in some conditions do not do good in averse weather. Up to the flier.
Start training in a few days. 20 miles a few times. First race 115 miles. Tomorrow half the eggs out. The furthest along. Week later others from another loft get dumped. Some should be good enough. Many will not as many yearlings were not raced as young birds. Have to eliminate quite a few for next year. No matter lose them flying or give a heck of a lot away. Meat or whatever. Nothing here I cannot afford to lose. Basic red family still here.
Beleive the pedigree orientated and big pigeon buyers are there for that purpose. Sell winners or off winners and get cash. But heck! Seems to work for a percentage, winners to winners. Rambled enough.

going to be -1 this weekend ,not good for racing pigeons ...just goes to show a later programme would be ideal

Not just for racing Oldstrain - though that in its self is very important.

However for better breeding in the warmer climate. Follow the birds in nature eh!

Have to smile at the silly 22 June or as near as possible for the longest race!

It is also the hottest day mostly!

'Were for more light' is the silly and feeble excuse. When we released in July for Lerwick, we had birds home in 7 hours and a darn site better returns! Even the folks on the island can't understand why we lib in June as the weather is so changeable in minutes!


Here's a thought! Dark now between seven thirty and eight O'clock. The weather has been drawing in for four to five hours and flipping cold. Warmer and longer hours in September is Ideal for mature y/b's to race is scorned! Why?

Transporters idle in July nigh. Best long distance racing time.

Feds try to spout rubbish for the masses to swallow ... like they have to book up a few years ahead. Rubbish!

I'll tell you, if NOW, this Friday onwards, members started yelling to be heard at club level for a much-needed change. The before season end enforce the feds to listen. To tell the National clubs what is what and relevant and needs addressing. Even threaten to avoid too early Nationals - time required to get the birds in race condition. The Nationals clubs and the transporters would soon alter their' minds frightened of losing Money and profits. A change would undoubtedly happen.
Remarkably it is the grassroots that pay their tolls. Whatever happened to 'He who pays the piper calls the tune' eh!
They are taking the pee!
Why don't they listen? Because too many are happy to twiddle their thumbs or sit on their hands. Hate loves silence ... they don't hear!
Change if not liked because one become comfortable with habits.

However, there is much change needed for the few years left in this so-called sport. Changes now will undoubtedly strengthen and prolong the enjoyment for some time! Tell them if we can't get bread in one shop ... we will get it at another shop!

You get exactly the same, year in, year out, suggestions going back many years raise their heads and they are just ignored, there are none that have not been proposed on many occasions.


The problem as well as apathy is the inability of anyone to implement them.


The Hall Report should have been a awake up call, unfortunately, the sport is back to square one.



Needs a number of fanciers whose only interest is enjoying the sport and saving it for future generations to get together and do a complete overhaul, taking into consideration present circumstances and not the past.



Even kicking the RPRA into touch maybe a good idea, it is they who have let the sport go to the dogs.



What other sporting association could not come up with one improvement for every member for rover 70 years and more ?.


Regards.

True Misty … but we are lone voices in the wilderness I'm afraid.
You know, seeing the moans already. Excuses made already, I wonder if I want to be part and partial of the sport now … Heart says 'Yes'! Mind says 'get real'!

very true misty but I am afraid too many are happy with their lot and follow like sheep

Yes that is a truth Oldstrain … mores the pity that a few can't stand up and be the ones to follow.
I read Misty's letters in the rag. Like wise Bilco's etc. I wrote some articles in the B.H.W. and had many contact me... But the gist is, they only follow a leader so that the don't do oat. Stand up to be counted.
Do they deserve what they get? No, not really, but are asperating at times.