old familys v the new

long ago the old type strains flew the whole program now the new style have distance they perform best to do the members think the familys that have been brought in from holl/belg over the last 40 years have improved the sport in the uk or been detrimental to the sport sean

If you take a look at any so called strain, and in particular the pedegree of them, you will see that in most cases it begins with lets just say KOOPMAN as an example.

The first generations you will see koopman up until grandparents, or great grandparents. Then as you go back other strains appear, so it seems that when they start breeding say 15/20 years back the birds in the loft are all crosses from others, then as we go on it changes to birds bred by that breeder and they then change name and become koopmans.

My point is that all New strains of today and Koopman is among them, usually start off with other strains of that day, so all new strains are built from crosses of the old. Basically nothing really is new as the origins are with the older strains, just look at the PEDS and the evidence is there.

As a note there is hardly a strain anywhere in the world that hasnt had a bit of anssen added to it somewhere Koopmans included. But even the anssens birds came from somewhere originally before they became Janssens?

Good point Martyn.
I'm glad you actually used someone like Koopman for an example.
If koopman was a UK fancier his pigeon breed would have been called Van Dijke or Bosua breeds.
Kev and I have spent nearly two years trawling through pedigrees to try and get an idea of the background of many breeds and how put back some vigour and vitality back into them that has been lost through continuous inbreeding and line breeding.
Janssen is a name that appears in most pedigrees.
But Janssen never mentions any other breed.
Now i am going to mention another man by the name of Janssen, no relation to the very famous brothers, this man is Roland Janssen, credit it where it's due he has sent me on a different journey and changed whole my train of thought of how to to put the vigour back into our ever weakening inbred racing pigeons.
A breed that has more than stood the test of time and you can breed these with any strain of pigeon and the dominance of this strain will show through.
Roland Janssen himself has documented this with the grizzle pigeons, the dominance is evident throughout his strain of pigeon.
he says never pair a grizzle to a grizzle, but pair a grizzle to any other colour of pigeon and the grizzle dominance will show through.
This is because the base of the grizzle pigeon is a much stronger pigeon genetically. This too has been attributed to the feather quality of his birds and their slender looks.

some very good valid points Martin and Gaz but if you look at the houben family the used the same family that janssen bros xsed into their fathers birds if you dig into the catrysse van der espt they too have a common denomenater as do the stichklebauts
Vandevelde folk should remember peds mean nothing to the belg/dutch as they continually swap birds with each other sean

Spot on Sean, pedigrees, are only bits of paper that mean nothing except a map of breeding. Some birds we have from direct purchases, have a ring no and the fanciers name who gave it or sold it to them some of these fanciers are unknown so having a good source of info like Killer & Guff is a very important resource one which is invaluable and these two guys have my gratitude for all the help and guidance that they have offered to me, sometimes on a daily basis, freely, Thanks guys.

Gaz b wrote:

Spot on Sean, pedigrees, are only bits of paper that mean nothing except a map of breeding. Some birds we have from direct purchases, have a ring no and the fanciers name who gave it or sold it to them some of these fanciers are unknown so having a good source of info like Killer & Guff is a very important resource one which is invaluable and these two guys have my gratitude for all the help and guidance that they have offered to me, sometimes on a daily basis, freely, Thanks guys.

yes gaz they a guied and if followed correctly can show yer how these guys made up their familys by useing the winning gene pool to great effect sean

Well we have certainly done some homework mate and have spent a few pounds along the way, yb season will hopefully give us some answers, but I think if they make it to yearling stage, they will upset the balance.
As they say only time will tell.

Some good comments there

But for me and I KNOW NOTHING from what i read and the way the belg/dutch fly as long as the pigeon is a top performer then they have no worries with adding this pigeon to there loft

But the biggest thing is that as soon as a pigeon changes lofts then the breed becomes the current owners name (breed)

Were the word pure is named this to me is a mith as everything is as commented but every loft to me within belg/dutch is a loft full of crosses

Good points there Don.
I will use a term 'Hybrid Vigour'
There are lots of fanciers out there who just do not pay attention to the bits of paper that comes along with their pigeons.
Many just do not seem to grasp the fact that the breed name is only the fella that bred it and not a pure strain of pigeon at all.
All the best racers are crossbreeds, ok stock birds are a different matter.

As you might know I am a janssen fanatic and have some good ones, however I am always looking for the miricle bird, and have bought lots of other breeds to cross with the janssen like, koopman, kees bosh, hermans ceusters and bushearts.

But the point that Dons made is something I always keep to and thats no matter what I have, good racers is what Im after Just like the Belgians and If 1 or more families fail to breed what I expect of them they are gone.
I will get rid of the whole lot without a single worry even janssens as there not all good ones no matter where they come from, one of the best breeders I have I bought blind for 26 quid, it wasnt til I got home and opened the box that I new what colour it was, The pedegree played no part in me buying it either. lol.

Gaz I always hate the word HYbred vigour, its means nothing as hybred is a term for crossing 2 different species so thats not technically correct.
A bullfinch x greenfinch is a hybred?
I think crossing different families is good if they are both good and are slightly inbred, but vigour only comes through good health.
ust my opinion nothing personal..lol

Gaz b wrote:

Good points there Don.
I will use a term 'Hybrid Vigour'
There are lots of fanciers out there who just do not pay attention to the bits of paper that comes along with their pigeons.
Many just do not seem to grasp the fact that the breed name is only the fella that bred it and not a pure strain of pigeon at all.
All the best racers are crossbreeds, ok stock birds are a different matter.

Cheers Boss still learning

Rudderfett wrote:

As you might know I am a janssen fanatic and have some good ones, however I am always looking for the miricle bird, and have bought lots of other breeds to cross with the janssen like, koopman, kees bosh, hermans ceusters and bushearts.

But the point that Dons made is something I always keep to and thats no matter what I have, good racers is what Im after Just like the Belgians and If 1 or more families fail to breed what I expect of them they are gone.
I will get rid of the whole lot without a single worry even janssens as there not all good ones no matter where they come from, one of the best breeders I have I bought blind for 26 quid, it wasnt til I got home and opened the box that I new what colour it was, The pedegree played no part in me buying it either. lol.

Cheers Martyn must be on the right path then

In used the term loosely for all the purists.
But when ya think about it the racing pigeon is a hybrid from rock dove, according to Darwin anyway.
as in Hybridising different families. LOL
In my opinion too many families of pigeons are too much inbred and they begin to lose that vigour, they become weak.
I recognised this first in 2001 with the janssens I had at the time.
only when I crossed them with totally different breeds did they make a comeback.
the only time that we do any inbreeding is for stock only.

the thing is with inbreeding and line breeding it can also bring the bad traits out just like the good traits as they say pure for stock xs to race thats why many repair their birds and take a round off their stock birds and racers and put their familys together keeping hold of these l/breds for the stock loft sean

We dont care wot they are aslong as there 1st over the pad and win they can be Heinz 57s.

VanReet Man123 wrote:

We dont care wot they are aslong as there 1st over the pad and win they can be Heinz 57s.

Absolutely right but as Martyn was saying I think that if someone buys some stock whatever breed they are, they try the birds out and if they Know what they are doing and they get some luck, then from the birds they brought in they may find they get some success.
Now it depends what kind of card the fancier flys as to which lines of the strain are winning for him or her, so they will eventually become his or her own breed as they are being tailor made for his or her club card.
The hard part is not just finding the winning genetics but keeping them once you find them for the next 30 years or more.
It is easier if you race predominately in the shorter races as they have many races each week from an early age but if your interest is the very long races birds are 3yo before they are ready to show their true potential.

I believe it is good for any fancier to have a few of these tough LD birds because they can navigate well on their own and their progeny can be sped up with a cross to a faster type of bird and hopefully it will inherit the Hardier distance birds brains.

I believe Hybrid vigour is gained best in a cross between 2 different linebred families but the good genes have to be there in the first place to breed birds with any consistency. If you are bringing fresh birds in they should be very good hens.
On a slightly different subject that Gaz mentioned The Roland Janssens are only raced by Roland over the shorter trip and they reign supreme there through rapid orienteering skills but their wing structure and feather quality says they will fly any distance that can be flown on the day at least.
I have some to try this season from 175 miles upwards begining on 3rd March and its going to be exciting to see how they fare. From 50 miles training they have been superb. Time will tell.

Weve crossed all the Roland Janssens this year with three different breeds
will be interesting lets see how they go.

Gaz b wrote:

Weve crossed all the Roland Janssens this year with three different breeds
will be interesting lets see how they go.

I hope they do the business for you, mine are racing pure this year and 4 of my 5 racers are all grand children of Red Bingo and super specimens that stand out from the rest and not just in colour, I want to cross them but first I need to see that I have the original matings correct. Good luck again with yours I like you am a great believer in these birds. Time will tell

good luck kev and gaz hope it works out for you both i have some old grooters here for the reasons you stated kev also some bricoux x sions and they were raced pure last season and were steady and always their abouts compaired to my other birds so have tried some crosses this year to add some speed ...all trial and error

Good bit of information Spencerline

seanl wrote:

long ago the old type strains flew the whole program now the new style have distance they perform best to do the members think the familys that have been brought in from holl/belg over the last 40 years have improved the sport in the uk or been detrimental to the sport sean

I wouldn't like to say which were the best birds some fantastic pigeon years ago aswell as today
I think there is a lot more speed bred into today's pigeons but I also think the birds years ago were a lot harder and stood up better
1 thing I think has been detrimental to the sport is the Health of the pigeons
The big influx of belg Dutch German pigeons of today and over the last 10 year has seen a massive increase in viruses and dieseses
Prompting a lot of lofts to over medicate or medicate with the wrong drugs and it's a vicious circle
Jmo
Jimmy

Bang on mate

Quarry Lofts wrote:

seanl wrote:

long ago the old type strains flew the whole program now the new style have distance they perform best to do the members think the familys that have been brought in from holl/belg over the last 40 years have improved the sport in the uk or been detrimental to the sport sean

I wouldn't like to say which were the best birds some fantastic pigeon years ago aswell as today
I think there is a lot more speed bred into today's pigeons but I also think the birds years ago were a lot harder and stood up better
1 thing I think has been detrimental to the sport is the Health of the pigeons
The big influx of belg Dutch German pigeons of today and over the last 10 year has seen a massive increase in viruses and dieseses
Prompting a lot of lofts to over medicate or medicate with the wrong drugs and it's a vicious circle
Jmo
Jimmy

Spot on Jim


The continent birds that hit theses shores all the years ago had no immune system as all the drugs had stopped that from being developed and when the pigeons were placed in english lofts fanciers started to use drugs as a last resort as the pigeons only coped when they were fill with medicines which at the time english fanciers never used
And have feel into the trap of all wins come out of a bottle

JMO as i know nothing

right again Don, and thats is one thing that both Kev and I can boast, our birds have a fantastic immune system as very little medication is ever used, except of course the pmv vaccine. but thats about it.