Time to swap eh?

I think that it is a good idea. A. to get new blood and genes. And a very valuable out cross.
I believe strongly that too many pigeons are closely related . Indeed too many by far.
Maybe if fanciers on here were willing to swap - or lend - 6 pigeons for the same and breed them with their' own birds, some vitality and a helping towards an immunity and basic essentials could start to be regained. Not least their' homing ability and instincts. A way forward to start regaining a good constitution and immunity is a 100% necessary to have good and healthy pigeons that can and will hold their conditions. It would give the birds a big lift up. indeed I  believe it could and should be done nigh every year. I had 5 different strains from well known fanciers. And still added another one or two birds from another proven loft, or to be honest, mainly an unrelated bird from same sauces. Yes the families were crossed and nary a close related breeding entertained. J.M.O. As I see it.

P.s. it would be a good and inexpensive way of maintaining a good healthy loft. Only healthy (and conditioned) birds win races worth winning.
P.s for a fact the best flyers do this. Sad to say many just of load the ' Not so Good' to help their costs. Indeed many inbred culls. Great bits of paper pedigrees that DON'T fly.

The only way to improve the immune system is to let nature take it's course.

This cannot be done by introducing new pigeons into a loft before those already in it have an already good sound immune system.

To exchange in bred birds to attempt to get more vigour and better performances is and has been for a very long time to exchange pigeons with like fanciers with no money involved and many have but this has nothing to do with the immune system.

There are far too many pigeons that win that are given too many preventative and curative medications.

These would in fact destroy the immune system.

You get a pigeons immune system to improve by anything other than allowing nature to deal with the problems.

The main reason todays pigeons are lacking an immune system is because of the studs who, having paid over the odds for stock had to protect them with medication over several generations and now the vast majoroty of pigeons are medication dependant in one way or another.

By all means help each other, athough this has always been the case in many areas but there is no short term possbility of the majority of present day pigeons not being drug dependant in one wayor another.

Regards.

I have two pair of lambrechts to move these are sprint pigeons both pairs are responsible for 8x1st prize winners plus a 2nd b/b this season winning £687.00 free

What on earth is an ignore list?

Says markevens is on mine????.


Does it mean he does not want to discuss anything wth me?.

Misty, agreed regards immune, thought that that was obvious from the post. But what I imply is good constitutions is a must. Too close breeding is harmful to the basics of what our birds are renowned for. Vitality etc. . All these things are part of and needed for a pigeon to obtain a good and effective immune system. Pigeons with poor constitutions, poor healthy don't have a cat in hell's chance of gaining, let alone instilling in their youngster the so much needed immunity.
Birds fit and healthy combat and beat much which is THEN passed onto their' youngsters.

Ferals and mongrel dogs roaming the streets take much on board and gain a good immunity. As a vet told me, 'Often pedigrees dogs, though annualised and then treated will, and may well die not able to combat, say Parvo. whereas a mongrel will show no ill effects and carry on as normal … passing on the immunity to other dogs through breeding.

I've often, as so many good medic etc. have!

A feel good factor for us only.

https://www.bbc.co.u...health-45434753
Not any good ! but is also a reason why a natural immunity isn't obtained... Grab the pil;l box, open the jar...

Of course, Daz, all wild animals develop a good immune system because they deal with all the problems without medication, the heathy survive and become immune to the problem on a continual basis, every time a new problem arises.

What the pigeon fraternity have done is the opposite, treated ill birds and bred from them, actually causing more difficult problems and the existing ones as I said prior to the YBS etc; will not be the worst as if matters go on a health problem will arrise that kills off the sport.

Regards.

Will to win. Fanciers. But were there is a win in the offing will is generated.

Then and now. Years ago no one really raced Sprint pigeons, UK any way. Times changed. To keep them at a high level all sorts of additives, boosters etc were used. Probably still are. So immune system MAY be compromised. I do not know. Not an aspect of the sport I have dabbled in.
Years ago (20 plus) I was in a small club North of London, Ontario. Lots of Irish families involved. On the club house walls were highlights from races 20 years previously. Dallas, Texas to the club. Over 1200 miles. Returns were pretty good. Speeds around 1000 ypm. Asked why they no longer flew it. They said Border customs, costs of shipping. More importantly losses rose tremendously in later years. "Not the birds we used to have." I was told.

Again Misty we sing off the same hymm book.
When I was a youngster I, and not being big headed here, I was more than above average in many sports. I could run forever, was, again trying be honest, a fine midfielder at soccer, that seemed natural that the rest followed my lead etc.
Then I decided to concentrate on boxing... a different fitness. Tony Kearns ran the Marathon and represented Ireland for instance. He longed to be able to fight in the ring … no matter how he tried he couldn't do more than 2 minute rounds even in the gym.
I was asked to run-- when I was active in Boxing, to represent Kettering in the Northants Towns sport 'Olympiad' I naturally at running. I sprinted... to many peoples amazement the 440... was last. Likewise then in the mile, 3rsd -- mind two runners from an athletic club went by me as if I had stopped in the last 200 yards. I was asked also to step in sometimes for a very good local soccer team, same club house as the Boxing gym. Which I did the odd time... I was very fit … but 2 yards short lol. I had to decide early on what sport I wanted most to do. No good getting a knocked knee Sat afternoon playing football if boxing that night! So I chose boxing.
My dad, who was a good boxer in his time said to me a few times Fit men train to get fitter'. Took a while to grasp and understand that. But how so very true.


Now if the pigeon fraternity , the grass roots want to get back a little what the pigeons have lost in the natural make up, we have to start from scratch and reverse many of these so - called 'Great' practises.!
First thing is to improve their' constitution. Vitality and then gain a natural immunity. Only breed from fit and proven birds... discard those that get ill easily. Maybe that they win on paper bag days.... but won't be breeding for the future stock we hope to achieve.

Hal, I think you will find the fact that ALL good pigeons are bred down from distance and hard day races. That is regardless what the fanciers favourite races are. Wether sprint or middle or distance. System is the important thing then.

Hal, we have had a very similar life regarding sports etc;.

Also without bragging, I was the fastest runner throughout my school days, played cricket and football for the seniors when a last year junior, played snooker and beat the grown ups when playing truant in the miners welfare hall, had a go at boxing with the miners boxers and got my head knocked off, but was cock of the school and made sure no one was victimized, played football with the professionals doing their National Service and the Regiment thereafter

I put it down to my parents and other previous members of my family having to deal with all the problems unlike the monied people whose chinless off springs spent more time off sick than at school.

All those in my school days who had everything on a plate are awaiting their judgement and many have been for a considerable time.

People make very simple things complicated for many reasons the biggest one is MONEY.


Winning pigeons have come from numerous different combinations some that are completely opposite to what many think is the Holy Grail, THAT IS BECAUSE THERE IS NOT ONE.


Regards.

MISTY wrote:

Hal, we have had a very similar life regarding sports etc;.

Also without bragging, I was the fastest runner throughout my school days, played cricket and football for the seniors when a last year junior, played snooker and beat the grown ups when playing truant in the miners welfare hall, had a go at boxing with the miners boxers and got my head knocked off, but was cock of the school and made sure no one was victimized, played football with the professionals doing their National Service and the Regiment thereafter

I put it down to my parents and other previous members of my family having to deal with all the problems unlike the monied people whose chinless off springs spent more time off sick than at school.

All those in my school days who had everything on a plate are awaiting their judgement and many have been for a considerable time.

People make very simple things complicated for many reasons the biggest one is MONEY.


Winning pigeons have come from numerous different combinations some that are completely opposite to what many think is the Holy Grail, THAT  IS BECAUSE THERE IS NOT ONE.


Regards.

Oh so true Misty We had a 700 odd mile race here last week end etc Dead set head wind by the forecast & it was won by a mate of the little fat bloke I mention here at times & is his toss partner at weekends. A Houban would you believe & is as big as a chook nearly . So no rules are set in stone in this caper I suggest & also, always a solution ???? what ever a predicament one may find one self in at times with pigeons. The 700 mile winner is like most here rat sh*te with numbers for the rest of the season unfortunately but has found a solution to his predicament with some smart thinking & it concludes some what with 8 races to go for him here as such "6 long races" 24 divided by 8 & it equals 3 pigeons a week just to get to the end of the season for him .  

May have posed before. In 2005 I was in Canada etc. Was with a Belgium representative of a very famous stud.
He related about a book that had just come out. In was a couple of chapters or so regards national and good sections winners.
Long story short many were weigh, measured etc. etc. The conclusion was simple. Nothing could denote a winner or nigh as they came in all shapes weighs and sizes etc.

Daz wrote:

May have posed before. In 2005 I was in Canada etc. Was with a Belgium representative of a very famous stud.
He related about a book that had just come out. In was a couple of chapters or so regards national and good sections winners.
Long story short many were weigh, measured etc. etc. The conclusion was simple. Nothing could denote a winner or nigh as they came in all shapes weighs and sizes etc.

Absolutely true Daz will never stop thou the spin doctor types I suggest who will for their own reasons push a certain type theory down certain peoples throats as if they have found the secret to success for our birds.

A top national winner told me that he once bought in some stock from a well known fancier... did 'Pidley pip' for him. So tried a cross..' not even a 'Pidly pip'. Another national winner and friend was at his loft one day and was told how useless they had been for him. So the mate said he would like to try them. So took them with him. No money exchanged hands of course.
They excelled for him...

Another fancier and well known name had some youngsters and replenished his stock most years. But never ever gave credit from whom they came from... which peeved my mate off some what and he told him so.
'What'! came the answer... I'm still selling my old strain with pedigrees... I don't sale yours... Besides if they knew I was having them off you, they would come direct to you and I wouldn't be selling many then would I'!
had a club mate bought some too. he also bought off another very well known flyer, a rascal and scum bucket that couldn't lie straight in bed... I was tempted to say a mite, but shamefully held my tongue.

Daz,
I Think there are far more genuine fanciers than the rascals.

However, there are far too many with the only intention is to make money and they are not too particular how.

A pigeon can only respond to the treatment given.

And as with any animal one will respond to love and another to brutallity but both will give the result wanted.

Think about it and it will answer many questions.



Regards.

Daz,
I Think there are far more genuine fanciers than the rascals.

Of course, and then again can one blame the buyer who spends good money being sold up the river. Of course not, but then as the saying goes 'A fool and his money is soon parted'.


Is it the fact that these Carleton's the have a lot to answer for, selling culls to unsuspecting buyers whom buy in good faith.
Name and shame could lead to all sorts of come backs, that's for sure, and their answer of 'I sold in good faith and intentions … but of course can't guarantee what is bred#! True of course IF that is true.
Also of course we know that very many winners have been bred from street urchins etc.
Which leads me back to my first post. Build your own yardstick. First off to lofts gains. each year only breed from out crosses that have a proven record of Health/ constitution and such. Replenish a natural properties. Homing ability will follow, and then stick to a system of the distance etc. you wish to partake in - or have 3 lofts lol … sorry 9 or more lol.
It is time WE took the bull by the horns and did it ourselves. First of by lending / borrowing or swapping to gain out crosses to start getting them necessary birds of vitality.
I. personally, say only buy from those that you have built up a good repour and trust and friendship if possible. Very many give of their best, and only too pleased to help. They get great satisfaction from good reports coming back of birds that have and do do very well for others.

I thought I had destroyed all my past breeding records but found those for 1968 and I got a real shock.

Memory is very fickle thing.

all you need is good sound healthy pigeons.
This based on the individual pigeons I purchased from genuine fanciers.

I had in fact 18 different breeds.

I made a list and their ring numbers but it would be too difficult to start putting on here.


But those that brought back memories were, Kempeneers,, Jet, Warrington, Stumpy, George Joseph, Barker and Logan, Fabry, De Baere, Huskin Van Reil, Dutch Gold, Kirkpatrick along with my basic stock pigeons ,

A load of mongrels that did everything asked of them, so ???? with breeds and all the theories all you need are healthy pigeons with ability and they come in all shapes and sizes and from all kinds of different places.


Regards.

A load of mongrels that did everything asked of them, so ???? with breeds and all the theories all you need are healthy pigeons with ability and they come in all shapes and sizes and from all kinds of different places.

What I believe in these fields of ' Not so goods / bought pigeons is what I would do ... starting today... If not too late, get some late breds from the guys that have these pigeons.

Like how you had so many different 'Out Casts' in your loft(s) Misty.

Now just where does one get the like today?


One, I fear, has to start culturing them their selves I believe.
Indays gone by, before all the silliness, good healthy birds were stocked in most lofts.

You are right Daz, the old timers nearly all had HEALTHY pigeons but as you know not all winners.

When I decided to either cut down or pack in for health reasons and risk the consequences and have a go at just the MNFC races I adopted a different approach and one I would adopt again.

I bought several pairs of well bred youngsters from a source I could trust and a family well known for distance performances and had them flying out, bred from them the first year and then introduce several youngsters of a different but just as well known breed from a source that I knew had good distance stock birds and sold the youngsters only.

I then culled all the second bought youngsters and let the remainder breed as they saw fit.

I raced some in the club and won with them up to having to stop for health reasons, several young bird races and THurso won the first one and second in the second one, 3rd and 4th Lerwick after the two best entries excaped at the marking, and scored and won in several other old bird races.

Never had stock birds as such all flew out open hole and paired up as they liked.

THe cost of the first ones was reasonable and the latter a real gift.

Never bred too many and ony kept the best, I do not like culling but.overcrouding is a NO NO.

If I new then what I know now that is probably the approach I would have used inicially.


Many different approaches, and there needs to be for different circumstances.

Regards.

'...…  the old timers nearly all had HEALTHY pigeons but as you know not all winners'.!
Not all winners by a long shot Misty, very true. Several reasons, not least many just loved to have pigeons around. Some saw in minutes ( often winners) what others would never see in a life time.
Big and many fanciers in clubs where competition was of a very high standard. Here there was within a 7 / 8 mile radios over 9 clubs with over 40 members each club. Also the time / costs with out the ability had a big say in who would be nigh the top every week - season.
There were the likes of Frankie George who flew big teams from 3 separate lofts... each having managers etc.

one thing that also stands out, which I often relate to is the fact that very few members ever trained. Birds let out once a day (Mostly) Youngster would range going up as specks or out of sight. Then straight into the races. Some big mob flyers split the 24 youngsters into two. Others, split theirs's into two also, but most sent the dozen every week. Old birds the same, an old cock or two sent early in may races in case of the East in the wind. the rest entered to get fit for certain races. etc. For example sent Berwick for Lerwick as such. Others sent what they could afford to that week lol. Like many!

Never trained pigeons other than the odd occasion and never any short distance.

The miners in my village only trained once in a blue moon and by rail but put up performanses todays pigeons would be hard pressed to emulate.

I think the whole senario changed when just a few well off and other opportunists saw the chance to cash in and the sport has sufferd as a consequence.

A back garden or allotment fancier would have an outstanding pigeon and the money boys would make an offer that the fancier would be hard pressed to refuse.

And then cash in by selling the young etc;

It was a hot bed of racing where I had my pigeons as a youngster, they started the Blackpool Show.

During the past the present area had some of the best fanciers, 2 Vaux Usher winners, a News of The World Winner etc; and it is one of the hardest routes.

Today you would be hard pressed to find a real fancier, unless theywere well into their old age.

Not only has the sport suffered but the pigeons themselves.

Within a few years, if there are a few left, I can see the sport going down hill fast if matters of concern are not addressed by all concerned.


Regards.