Moan and do NOTHING.

Not all that long now to training and then racing.

Not long before moans and groans about losses.

Been going on in an incresing manner for the past ????. years.

Just what has ANYONE done to either identify the cause or offer a reasonable means of dealing with te problem?.

The Raptor Alliance a complete waste of time and money, they said measures would be taken to attempt to deal with the problem several years ago, result, nothing.

In the 70s it was apparent that the raptor problem was going to increase, I suggested testing in court just where a fancier stood if killing a raptor to protect his pigeons.

As I pointed out to the then General Manager how can you consider anything without knowing how you stand at the moment.

One fancier offered to admit killing a sparrowhawk to protect his pigeons if the RPRA would pay the costs of any court case. no response from the RPRA.

I brought to the attention of the RPRA a case where a man had killed three sparrowhawks and the RSPB had refused to procecute. (Cage & Avery Birds).

Now the distinct possibility is that if they had charged him, (do not know if he was a pigeon fancier) and he had claimed that the Law protecting raptors was no longer legaly binding it would have caused enormous problems for the RSPB.

The fact is also it would not only be sparrowhawks involved but all raptors under the obsolete law.


But then why worry until you become a victim which is the general manner fanciers treat the sport.

Regards.

I posted similar Misty, on here and others.
I also spoke regards the moans and whinging. Had on two other sites 3 times great debates.
Posted as you have above. No hardly a ripple. A couple in total said that they talked toi te Secretary...
I further asked regards 'Race programmes. Different and new site... not a whimper. Regards a Later start, same amount of races. Able to have two rounds starting in late march / April... and a early September finish --- most over the last few years the weather has been ideal in till middle of September at least.

Nary a one have I heard in any response to these and other pointers... Except 'Weer they will do as they like. Always have, and always will'!
Mentioned that they are part and partial of them very same ones! Also that their apathy is some what high on the reasons why!


One thing I am certain of is that come next season the whingeing and moaning will be more robust and USELESS!
Blame the Race controller! Blame the race point! Blame the weather! and much more... Any one and any thing but themselves.

Yes Daz, Get down to what should count and be addressed and most fanciers could not be bothered but are happy to discuss matters that will not solve the sports problems.

Have pointed out over the past 40 odd years that in the running at the top of the RPRA are those who lie, fabricate evidence to pervert the course of justice, totally ignore the rules and have not at Council level anyone who knows how to conduct a meeting in a proper manner if my experience is anything to go by, the chairman was a total disgrace and not a clue as to RPRA RULES.

I have tried by suggesting no one serves on the Council for more than 4 years for over40 years, the Hall report actually indicated what I have been saying for 40 years.

But give the club a few bob, give a few young ones to charity, etc; and you will always get the yes boys making excuses for those not fit to be in any sport never mind running it, and I mean at the very top.

But in doing so vote for me to be a cuncillor and for going and meeting my like abroad etc;

Now if I was not telling the truth there would behell to play by those involved but with their yes men who are only bothered about themselves they will carrry on as before.

Said what would happen to the propositions at the last AGM, they have used the same method for years to deny the ordinary fancier the chance to change anything that threatens their little clique.

Will fanciers take note? Can elephants fly?


Regards.

.

No moaning or groaning here regarding most matters. Predators I deal with as needed.

halcanada wrote:

No moaning or groaning here regarding most matters. Predators I deal with as needed.

Not/never, noticed either any moaning or groaning on this site Hal One big happy family of sorts, one could maybe suggest etc .

There is no suggestion regarding individuals on this site moaning, although I did notice some not being happy with losses and raptors etc;

The whole point is to attempt to save a dying sport, the more fanciers who get involved instead of the I am Alright Jack attitude the better.

If matters of importance to the welfare of the sport are ignored and the running left to those who have let the sport go to the dogs over the past 50 or so years fanciers will get what they deserve.


I am talking about the sport as a whole and all that is wrong and could be attended to if fanciers were interested in doing so.


The vast majority of fanciers are the salt of the earth, it is a sport which appeals to those with a love of animals and with a competitive nature and would be a sad loss if not available to future generations but WILL be lost if fanciers do not get involved, instead of making out everything in the garden is rosey.


Regards.

I used to go to nigh every Fed meet … sometimes as club delegate.
I never - at one time - ever missed a local region RPRA meet - East Midlands.
Was a mite thorn in side.

Was moaned at, a lot, regards reporting back truth at Fed meetings.

Was at a time a club President. I asked for a couple of weeks the behind the Hand brigade and corridor brigade to debate and put the world right, and moans at those doing the work, to start helping regards basketing etc. Whispers and poo hoo ed behind MY back prevailed as I thought it would... So I told them 'AS from next week, if they didn't help their birds wouldn't be basketed and then obviously wouldn't go'.

Rules and regulations became the topic that night lol. BESIDES 'Just who does he think he is'.

Next week after basketing, and back for my pint in the bar with them, the sneer was 'Gosh you basketed the birds quick to night'. then 'How many went' etc.
I said nowt for a time. Then I stood up and called them all to listen - can't say 'Order' but close lol.


By the way, those who didn't help tonight will find their birds still in their' basket. If you want to send them I suggest you act now, and get quick about it for the wagon will be here in about 10 minutes to load them up'! Two took their birds home. The other set about - with the Sec marking - and loaded their' birds. Some would have loved to have thumbed me,,, But they weren't that stupid. Next week was better. Then I set about a Rota for each week.

I was voted off being president lol come the AGM. Also as I reported back truths at fed meeting and HOW OUR delegates actually voted which wasn't how it was at the club's meeting. Indeed I still went to many annoyance.

Obviously we have been along the same lines regarding our sport and met the detrimental parts that fanciers are not interested in but are one of the reasons the sport is dying, more interested in mundane matters that will not in any way save the sport.

As you I have mostly been either chairman or president of the club.

Never personally had a problem getting the right rules introduced but been threatened a few time by those who would never think of getting in a ring with someone their own age etc;

Always managed to point out their short comings.

As for voting at Regions etc; I proposed a list being given showing how everyone voted, not only at Region but at Council level. Several times to General Managers, always ignored, at the time.

There are some genuine fanciers on both Region and Council but are always outvoted by the Old Brigade.

Sad Daz but with the apathy shown towards anything that could possibly improve matters I can not see matters improving.

The AGM of the RPRA will be a good sign as to the prospects of any significant changes in the manner the sport is run, I said what would happen at the last AGM and it did they found a way of calling propositions out of order etc:

So no significant changes and the Old Brigade still in charge.

I bet you feel as frustrated as I do I have been suggesting changes for over 45 years, yet the RPRA have done nothing to improve the sport for all of that time, other sports have gone forward ours backwards.

Have asked several times for just one improvement that the RPRA have made in that time that was of benefit to every fancier, I cannot think of one, nor apparently can they.

Regards.

This is mainly to Misty and Daz regarding your very interesting comments made within this post.

I am afraid I am not very familiar with either of you as Misty only became a member in January last year and Daz in July last year. As some of you will probably know, I used to be quite a big contributor to this forum, but for a long time, haven't bothered for both personal reasons (my health) and I got a bit cheesed off with being shot down many times when I tried to bring certain things to people's attention. It is quite refreshing to see that we have newer members who have got the gumption to question things and stand up for things that they believe are right. Hallelujah. Sometimes the apathy in the pigeon world really gets to me.

Raptors - I, like many other fanciers, am totally sick and tired of all this namby pamby over-protective attitude to these killers of our birds. The raptor problem got so bad for us that we have had to sell up a house that we have only just bought 12 months ago and try and find somewhere else a bit safer. Previous to moving back to the UK, we lived in Central Brittany, France, for over 15 years and, even though we were told birds of prey were a problem, we never realised just how bad the problem was.

I noticed in 2019's New Year's Honours List that stinking Chris Packham, who delighted in telling and showing the whole country how wonderful it was that a peregrine would try to drown a pigeon before pulling it to pieces, has been given some CBE from the Queen! In my opinion, the guy needs kicking in the goolies.

We purchased a house on the edge of the Forest of Dean - bad move! Need I say any more.

People moaning and not doing anything about it - I am a very widely travelled man who has had more experiences than most people would have in 5 lifetimes. I am very curious in nature and always willing to learn things. If I am interested in a subject, I make it my duty to research it as much as I can.

I have brought a few things to this forum's attention and to date have mainly got shot down in flames or had the pee taken out of me or some other negative response. For example, I was told some time ago by one of the world's leading racing pigeon VETERINARIANS about something which is widely known as the 'K Factor' or the 'K Index'.

In a nutshell, it has got to do with solar activity on the surface of the sun and how this can interfere with racing pigeons' homing abilities. In fact, not just racing pigeons but a lot of migratory birds. There are a few highly regarded pigeon people around the world who know about the K factor, what it entails, and how it can be damaging to pigeons, and respect it. In fact there is a small column every week during the racing season in the BHW informing fanciers of what is happening with the K factor.

When I tried to educate this forum about my findings, and about the other knowledgeable world renowned fanciers who understood what I was trying to say, I was met with abuse and ridicule.

I also tried to help the members of this forum to understand racing pigeons' nutritional needs when it comes to the longer races - that was also met with the same response. However, when I had my article printed and sent to several top pigeon nutritionists and vets, their response was extremely positive.

No wonder I gave up with this forum for a while!

I have spent the majority of my life as an educator and when I was teaching full time, I used to say, "you can try and teach people as much as you know but you can't make them learn."

Changing things
I, along with a couple of other club members, suggested that our club started the whole racing calendar a couple of weeks later. This would serve several purposes I thought -

1. it would mean we didn't have to breed so early and possibly suffer some of the extreme cold snaps we have had in the past few years that have killed off some of our eggs, and possibly very young birds, and

2. more importantly, the hen sparrow hawk, and possibly peregrine, has a voracious appetite leading up to her laying and sitting on eggs. If we delayed our breeding back to a sensible time, this would mean that the hen raptor would have to go and find other birds to feed her insatiable appetite and leave our poor young pigeons alone that can hardly fly at the time when she is extremely active.

However, I was told, in no uncertain terms, that things like that could not and would not EVER happen because big associations like the NFC, the BICC, Midlands National etc, had set their calendars for the next 5 years, and nobody but NOBODY was going to get them to change it. So they weren't even going to try. What a load of horse manure!

And finally - for now - We all know that our wonderful sport is dying on its feet and what we really need is new young blood. I am sure somebody is going to tell me I am wrong, but I have never heard of an incentive by a club or a federation to try to help young people come into the sport in some way.

We read within the pages of the BHW in the summer that a few schools have had lofts erected and birds supplied by a local clubs in an effort to promote the sport. I would relish the opportunity to take a young person under my wing so to speak and to teach them about this amazing craft we call pigeon racing.

Surely it would be possible for every club in the whole country to help a young person or several young people to get started in racing pigeons. Two of our grandchildren go to school within a couple of miles of another house we are very interested in. If everything pans out, I see no reason why we couldn't take some young birds to their school and introduce them to the children. I can imagine their little faces when Grandad and Granny come to their school with some pigeons!

Over to you guys.

Phil

Phil,
Look back in both the BHW and the RP and you will see I have covered every aspect relative to our sport that could be considered as a means of improving it.

Along with the late Steve Spinks who was the first fancier to suggest using schools as a means of interesting youngsters and in fact just prior to his death was in the process of making a video to show in schools, and Mike on His Hill I attempted to point out if action was not taken the sport along with the health of our feathered friends would suffer, losses increase and our feathered friends needcorrespondenceing constant treatment from new health problems and we should shun the continentals.

We covered during the late 1960s and myself up until today things that should be attended to, raptors should have started being of concern as pointed out when the fanciers from Scotland warned of their problem which they said would soon be ours.


If you look back not yesterday but 45, 50 years go you will see I and friends saw the writing on the wall and warned as to the possible consequences, you had fanciers like a Mr Staddon, along with others who said he spoke for all Southern fanciers who were fed up of our writing detrimental articles etc.

I shut him up, can give details of relative BHW, what he was unaware of I was corresponding with the most influencial fanciers in the South and many ordinary fanciers who wrote to me, must be well into the hundreds over the years, for every one that was against or disputed what I wrote ten times more agreed, then as now the I'm Alright Jacks , the most letters were from the South.

I also corresponded with top fanciers from abroad who agreed with much of what I wrote.

When there is a problem you start sorting them out at the top and the sooner the better.

Regards.

Phil. Not in order but some points you made. I use this site. K factor? Up to me to send or not.
https://www.pigeonmagnetometer.com/
Raptors. Not a great problem here. However, four legged predators are a problem. Those I can trap or shoot. Quite a list. Rats, weasel comes along kills the rats. No more rats kills pigeons. Taken care of. Cats. Quite a few a year. Racoons, possums, skunks, mink. Just the one mink. Some one opened cages on a mink farm and they spread out. Different countries different problems.
Young fanciers. Different race schedules etc,. Nova Scotia club. East coast. Started by a retired fancier from this area. Good fancier. Lots of members and just started year ago. Early bred young or not. No matter. They use the same race point each week. Old and young same race point. So young birds banded with old rings still compete. Old birds released first. 30 mins later young birds. They start racing later in the year and finish earlier in the year than any other Fed or club I know of. The founder of the club, Dave Ottoway, won some all Canadian awards this year. It is not all Gloom and Doom!!.

Hi Phil very interesting article yes pigeon men are their own worse enimies . they listen but dont listen if ypu knpe what i mean, ive listen to fanciers saying the smaller clubs should amalagamate to make one viable club , but you try and get the same fanciers to do just that, they tell you to go way not very politley ,I know ive tried, We have talked about federations heading in the same direction going up together the same fanciers who dont want clubs to amalgamate are against this as they dont want their birds comming slightly off line the old saying wise men come from the east as we have predominatly west wind , What the answer is to the problem i dont know , I thing you are born a pigeon man my granfather had pigeons 13 sons not one was interested i was his his first granson and the earliest memory i have is sat on his loft steps watching the birds and have been surrounded by pigeons ever since I would have like to read ur post on long distant racing as this is the way the sport will be heading
Ken

Ken - if one believes what fanciers say in my presence - Long Distance racing will be the first to go.

In my opinion, long distance flying should be the ultimate goal - but it takes a LONG time to get a family that can do the longer distances.

You will know because you have been doing this a bit longer than a couple of months - long distance birds that are good, are even harder to find than chickens teeth.

When it come to flying a pigeon over 400 miles or so, the food management has to be even more correct, or else the bird will not be able to make its way back home.  Gone are the days when you can give your birds hands full of maize in the hope that the maize will get you a winner.  Most fanciers don't even know that maize, despite the amount given, will all be gone in the first hour of the birds race.  Then what did you give the bird to help it get home in good time.

Someone said on this forum, very recently, that loft management (and all that goes along with that) is 80% + of the battle.  I believe that is correct.  A mediocre bird will do much better for a very good loft man/woman, than a really good bird will do for a crap fancier.

Misty - you must feel a lot like I do when it comes to trying to help the sport - it is like banging your head against a brick wall.

Phil

Think you are right regarding long distance racing.

Firstly you need the pigeon capable of the task asked.

Then you have to know how to give it the fuel to do the job

The conditions must be possible for the task asked weather wise etc;

You will find exceptions in all aspects of our sport but as they are in any other activity.


Then you have the limited number of races to compete in.


Then the actual waiting for returns, would never myself have sent a pigeon to a race and not been there to welcome it back.


From maybe a thousand pigeons you would be more than fortunate to have one real genuine LONG distance pigeon, if starting from scratch.

Then you have the travelling problem to mark and time etc;


Many fanciers are grass root, no money to burn and want maximum enjoyment from their pigeons and sprint racing offers a far better return in all respects.


Regards.

No i think long distance will survive taling to people round Like Phil says and Misty its a totaly diffrent form of racing , ive always been a sprint man but over the last few years ive drifted towards distance prepration of birds is differant feeding is differant ive been looking at differant times of corn for awhile now , one loft racing will that become the norm for pigeon racing one thing for sure is the sport will dissapear unless the grass root and the powers that be actually start talking and listening instead of spending thousands on working committees who do nothing except sayng the sport needs new blood , yes it does but local coucils dont help round here as an alotment becomes vacant because the fancier has pass awaysuddenly become lifestock free and trying to get permission to build a loft in your own back garden has noe=w become near impossible so yes we are up against it
Ken

I think you are right that there will always be long distance enthusiasts'

The challenge is far greater than sprint racing, but as the costs increase it will only be those with enough finances who can afford to compete, that will keep it going but irrespective of anything else just being involved adds to the future of the sport


Had many on the day pigeons from Lerwick and also many channel races but cannot imagine the thrill of welcoming one back from 700 miles.


Good luck to anyone with the guts to try.


Regards.

blueskylofts wrote:

Ken - if one believes what fanciers say in my presence - Long Distance racing will be the first to go.

In my opinion, long distance flying should be the ultimate goal - but it takes a LONG time to get a family that can do the longer distances.

You will know because you have been doing this a bit longer that a couple of months - long distance birds that are good, are even harder to find than chickens teeth.

When it come to flying a pigeon over 400 miles or so, the food management has to be even more correct, or else the bird will not be able to make it's way back home.  Gone are the days when you can give your birds hands full of maize in the hope that the maize will get you a winner.  Most fanciers don't even know that maize, despite the amount given, will all be gone in the first hour of the birds race.  Then what did you give the bird to help it get home in good time.

Someone said on this forum, very recently, that loft management (and all that goes along with that) is 80% + of the battle.  I believe that is correct.  A mediocre bird will do much better for a very good loft man/woman, than a really good bird will do for a crap fancier.

Misty - you must feel a lot like I do when it comes to trying to help the sport - it is like banging your head against a brick wall.

Phil

I agree with point one Phil, sadly it's happening here on a local basis unfortunately with certain Feds. Point two above, I fully agree that distance type racing should be the alternate goal as such etc. Suspect thou on average long distance type racing is lost as one could relate it to maybe, modern day cricket, which now is a bash, bash bash thing & over in 20/50 overs compare to the old test match scenario & also even tennis today I see is given away the 5 set drama of a hard slog, slog to find the eventual winner now & is bringing in a tier breaker moment to conclude the match compared to the old ways as such. On the feed issue put a 100 experts in a room & you will have a 100 different theories I would suggest .

Club I am in will not fly over 320 miles. Fed will so ship with them. There are two ways to get birds to perform at the distance. Easiest way is to buy young birds off proven fliers. But takes time before the fancier can race them.
Have won 800 mile races. 5 and 400's also. Flying to the nest. The way I did it? Ignore the strain. Ship birds as much as possible any distance. Simply put the ones that cannot do the distance will disapear. Strain I used? First 500 miler Des Mathys.  800 miler Jannsen basically. Red. As were most others. Feeding? 15% protien mix. High fat. Never really looked at the label. Full feed in front of them most of the time. What can I say? Works for me. Not saying any one else should do it as it goes against most views on the subject. Each to their own.

halcanada wrote:

Club I am in will not fly over 320 miles. Fed will so ship with them. There are two ways to get birds to perform at the distance. Easiest way is to buy young birds off proven fliers. But takes time before the fancier can race them.
Have won 800 mile races. 5 and 400's also. Flying to the nest. The way I did it? Ignore the strain. Ship birds as much as possible any distance. Simply put the ones that cannot do the distance will disapear. Strain I used? First 500 miler Des Mathys.  800 miler Jannsen basically. Red. As were most others. Feeding? 15% protien mix. High fat. Never really looked at the label. Full feed in front of them most of the time. What can I say? Works for me. Not saying any one else should do it as it goes against most views on the subject. Each to their own.

One pathetic excuse of a local Fed here Hal has just cut out a 400 mile & 3, 350 mile type races from their program as such I believe for next year. replaced them with 3/4 pissy little 150 mile type races sadly. Pathetic, from my perspective      but that is what one get's at times when one maybe just has a small narrow minded coffee club type set setting the agenda for their own gain & benefit & just doesn't give a rats a**e, for those outside their little bubble type of thing at times    .

The problem is Knackered you will never get 100 experts because there aren't 100 real experts in any area! You would be lucky to get 10 people who call themselves experts, but 8 or 9 of them won't be.

Knackered wrote:

halcanada wrote:

Club I am in will not fly over 320 miles. Fed will so ship with them. There are two ways to get birds to perform at the distance. Easiest way is to buy young birds off proven fliers. But takes time before the fancier can race them.
Have won 800 mile races. 5 and 400's also. Flying to the nest. The way I did it? Ignore the strain. Ship birds as much as possible any distance. Simply put the ones that cannot do the distance will disapear. Strain I used? First 500 miler Des Mathys.  800 miler Jannsen basically. Red. As were most others. Feeding? 15% protien mix. High fat. Never really looked at the label. Full feed in front of them most of the time. What can I say? Works for me. Not saying any one else should do it as it goes against most views on the subject. Each to their own.

One pathetic excuse of a local Fed here Hal has just cut out a 400 mile & 3, 350 mile type races from their program as such I believe for next year. replaced them with 3/4 pissy little 150 mile type races sadly. Pathetic, from my perspective      but that is what one get's at times when one maybe just has a small narrow minded coffee club type set setting the agenda for their own gain & benefit & just doesn't give a rats a**e, for those outside their little bubble type of thing at times    .

On your last comment Knackered absolutely well said. Too many clubs of all kinds, pigeon clubs, gardening clubs, bridge clubs, fly tying clubs, are run by little power-crazed twits who are only there because nobody else will do the job.

But these crazed fools don't see it like that, they think they are in the position that they are in because people agree with their principles, and in my humble experience, most people get these old farties to do the grunt work because they simply can't be bothered doing it themselves.

It's the same old story, most people want maximum reward for little effort. That's why these people who sell so-called wonder diets are coining it in hand over fist.

Phil

blueskylofts wrote:

The problem is Knackered you will never get 100 experts because there aren't 100 real experts in any area!  You would be lucky to get 10 people who call themselves experts, but 8 or 9 of them won't be.

Experts there are a plenty I suggest Phil face book, twitter/internet etc . Fortunately here I've found. We are just a bunch of know nothing types as such  or just harmless of nature, maybe thankfully.

Phil we are all not power crazed twits some of us do itfor thhelove of the sport we try our best to run successful clubs to keep the club alive i took on a job i dident want still dont but tyr by best
Ken

friendsloft wrote:

Phil we are all not power crazed twits some of us do itfor thhelove of the sport we try our best to run successful clubs  to keep the club alive i took on a job i dident want still dont but tyr by best
Ken

Hi Ken - I certainly was not getting at you and the other few people that do have our sport in mind. I should have said something to that end in my post.

Absolutely NO offence meant.

Your humbly.
Phil

Hi Phil non taken
Good debate
Ken