Moan and do NOTHING.

We are a small forum having a solid debate , the RPRA as the biggest platform comming up Blackpool where thousands of fanciers will attend wouldent it be nice if the powers that run (Govern our sport ) held an open forum to put and discuss ideas from the grass roots first hand instead of having to go through regions if ur allowed to as we know not many things gets passed these
Ken

What a pleasure to see more taking an interest in matters relative to the sport.

No such thing as an expert in our sport, there is not one method that outstrips any other, one fancier can use one method and win another a directly opposite method and also win, both could change methods and neither win.

In my opinion the most important aspect for long term success is to have an infinity with your feathered friends, not one offs but longevity.

But until the RPRA take note of what the fanciers needs are and abide by the majority decisions taken on an individual vote nothing will change.

Lets hope the coming AGM of the RPRA sees some changes as a start to save the sport for future
generations.


Regards.

Just a few more comments. Affinity with the birds. I do not spend much time in the loft this time of year. Wish I could. But when it gets down to minus 30 or even 10 I get pretty cold. Lofts not heated.
Now as for nutrition. I have worked with animals after leaving the Merchant Marine for over 50 years. Dairy cows in Bermuda, the US and here in Canada. Last 40 some years worked with hogs. All aspects of the industry. Many places made our own feed. Bought in what we could not formulate. Feed guidelines were established and are always under review by vets worldwide. Thousands of vets!!!! Not one or two pigeon vets!! I know, different scenario from pigeons. Their means of income rely on research in to the nutritional needs from new borns to market hogs. Their reputation is at stake. Yet a pigeon vet or feed company can put out a product that claim to be superior. People buy it. Diet mix, moulting mix, breeding mix etc,. Moulting mix add safflower. Or peanuts. Pigeon will eat what it requires instinctively. Up to a point. Summer time open loft is the ideal situation. For my pigeons anyway. All people I fly against are on widowhood. Cocks and hens. Have won some short fast ones but not often. The people I race against are always saying when I win that the weather was in my favour, their birds got off line. Etc, etc,. Who gives a crap but those folk? Many have imported expensive strains from Europe. They have developed a short distance fast flying pigeon that excells in ideal weather. Also medicated and fed right according to experts. They are bred from what? European ace cock? Ace hen? No substance. Seems nowadays if the birds do not have a pedigree they are useles. Pedigrees in themselves just show Sire and Dam. They cannot foretell the future but are a good indicator. Jannsens were not supposed to be long distance birds. Yet as stated, have won with them up to 700 miles. Origin are Tom Macks off a pair he imported. From Jules Gallez. Old pair. My advice to new members would be this. Get pigeons from a honest flier. Train and race as he does using his methods. Then think out of the box and tweak a little. The good ones will come for you. Well, late here. Rambled on too much.

Hal - I think you have hit the nail on the head - If I understand your posting correctly - you are saying something like:-

'Find a system that suits you and work with it'

As you say, some things work for one fancier and the same thing may not work for someone else.

I also believe that having an affinity with one's birds can be very helpful but maybe not be the end-all-and be-all of the matter. I believe that being able to walk into one's lofts without the birds running/flying in all directions and having them reasonably tame is the first thing to try and achieve.

Our stock birds can go crazy sometimes when we enter their loft. Simply because they do not have as much contact with us as we would like. Life just gets in the way most times. We do not spend a lot of time with them on a daily basis unless it is breeding time. Then we are in and out of their loft a lot for weeks on end. Then we see a change in their behaviour. Maybe it is just their 'parenting' nature - wanting to protect their babies, but they seem a lot quieter within a short time.

As for the idea of getting the RPRA to sit down with THEIR members, (I say THEIR members, because we are their members and we help to pay their wages, not that you would know that by the way we are treated) I would love to see that, but, unfortunately, I think we have NO chance of getting them to do that.

Maybe we should ALL rebel and MAKE them listen to us. After all - as I have just said - WE pay their wages, so they should be working for US. In the normal world, if you pay someone's wages, they do what you say, not the other way round.

Phil

Great to see a debate openly responded too.
I won't at moment post as I believe A. many aspects are being discussed. Will later no doubt as I can't stand aside for long. Lol.
Have carried since May past till now on another two sites much what is being said as some will no doubt know. Still am lol. Good reading.

One little pointer I mentioned earlier was that TOO many posters, good, bad, knowledgeable etc. don't and haven't posted or replied for the very reason Phil started this topic off on.
I once wrote articles for the BHW. Club members enjoyed. Other made a hat to fit. Some said that they were going to sort me out and bash me lol. But they were that stupid to try lol.

Bilco started to write regards years before it had taken hold for instance. Gave a pointer how to combat it before it got too big... nearly 30 years ago - or more!

Matters can be changed with the right attitude and the right backing.

At the same time as I realized the RPRA was run by undesirables the same applied to the YMRF a large Fed at that time.

It was run by just a few who thought they knew everything and took no notice pf the members nor the Rules.

So I challenged them at an AGM meeting and called the meeting out of order quoting the pertinent rules.

They tried to shout me down and the president told me I had to leave the room, fortunately there was a member who was of the same mind as I and said he would take the matter to Council if my request was not adhered to.

The meeting was cancelled a new AGM called and a completely new set officers elected to run the Fed. and I served as one for several years during that time we had some very good meetings and everything was run according to the rules.

If there are any of those involved in running that Fed I can assure you they would verify the facts.

Sad to say more recently I had case to attend a Fed meeting of that Fed and it was pathetic involving liars and run like a Fred Carnoes Circus.

If enough fanciers were concerned about how the sport is run it could be changed from the present state where fanciers wishes are not even considered and dismissed on dubious grounds.

I have tried for over45 years to have the necessary changes made, both to rid the sport of the undesirables and give the fanciers the chance to air their views and have them adopted with the consent of the majority of individual fanciers votes.

I tried the same method as adopted when sorting out the YMF but have had no backing, the Old Brigade have learned how to foil any attempt to dislodge them.

They even had the cheek to get rid of elected council members on the grounds of No Confidence and got away with it, the only ones with a right to do so was the ones who elected them, the ones involved wanted to do an in depth investigation into the whole RPRA ???????.


Lets just see what happens at the next RPRA AGM.


Regards.

Many ways to alter things. Nationals, feds and clubs. But removing our membership / walking away  seems not to matter a jot.  Biggest hurdle I believe is the - and with cause - is the Apathy.
Also 'Well we'll see it out, will be dead and buried soon'.
Why are the Big concerns worried? Because they still get their money on top of their way!

So, say before the A.G.M. Members get together in JUNE! spout THEN their concerns. Please the Sec, because most likely no one else will take his job over. Get him on board.
 Voice via him and Club to the concerns that you are unhappy with. Letters to the Mags. Nationals, RPRA sections and head offices. Challenge on 'Paper' and in the Mag's their flimsy excuses! the pen IS mightier than the Sword.
Advocate postal voting. Advocate elected personal with no axe to grind, or able to seek credence / favours or money. the list goes on.

I was asked on numerous occasions to give a 'Name' a write up! I never did. Why, well A. a good inn needs no bush. Many are selling culls. Birds of any shape size that may look like a throw back. Might as well go and buy them yourselves from the 'Fur and Feather' market /merchants.
B. I certainly didn't want my name associated with the writers who took Youngsters / Bribes in fact. C. Nor thought to be involved with a unworthy stance and callous business.

Not bragging here, but I am very friendly with numerous top fanciers.
Built a family on 5-6 good names at very little costs.
Never ever bred from close relation, but would introduce if and when needed in this regard.
I have wrote/ posted of times when unscrupulous so called 'Names' and their deceitful and horrid ways.
there you've set me off again lol.

Same DAz, picked certain pigeons I fancied, travelled miles for some, not bothered about breeds all the young complete open loft and they eventually became the stock birds as well as the racers.

Best advice I ever received was from Mr, Kellaway, Fuller Isaacsons loft manager by means of a hand written book, worth it,s weight in gold, lost it in house change, mad as a hatter ever since.


Regards.

Daz you are right when you say apathy is the problem like you ive heard members say as long as i can race pigeons while im alive not bothered really , or youngsters wont come into the sport because its too expensive or you carnt get them off the computor . most of the time you cannot get them to come to meetings yet they are the first ones to complain , im lucky we have proactive club we are few agaist the let see what happens brigade when it does happen it will be too late then you watch the lets see what happens brigade start moaning why was nt anything done you can guess the rest
Ken

Apathy has been apparent in our sport for at least 45 years, the time I have attempted to change matters, the vast majority of fanciers are content to go to the club, do as little as possible and just enjoy the efforts of others.

This works very well if those doing all the work are genuine, and most are, and they do so for the love of the sport and many enjoy the activities other than just the competitive side of the sport, some like organizing things, I always enjoyed being involved in organizing shows etc; and never looked on it as anything other than a pleasure to do so when you see the results of your efforts.

But the fact remains that with the vast majority not being bothered about anything other than themselves it gives rise to the situation that has been the case for many years, a bunch of people take advantage of the situation get themselves in a position of power and become dictatorial and do as they wish irrespective of rules or the memberships wishes.

If fanciers do not take the Hall Report to heart which clearly says what I have said for 45years then the sport does not deserve to survive.


Regards.

It is VERY clear to me that a lot of fanciers are not at all happy with the situation as it stand right now.

Apathy  - we hear this a lot, and by the sounds of it, it has been going on for years.

In the two clubs we belong to, the same old few, do all the work, while the rest turn up late sometimes, do nothing to help, then go to the bar and chat with their mates (not pigeon folks by the way), then go home with their clocks.

Most have to be chased for subs and and their weekly dues for sending their birds. It's just not on!

But we - The Few - turn up week after week, do what has to be done and don't even get a 'thanks' most times.

We could not race the old bird program last year because we had only just come back form frogland and we had no old birds to race - BUT we turned up, every week to help do the baskets, marking etc.

I am not saying this to say 'aren't we great' but just to show that it is all a case of mind-set.  If you want to take part in something, you should be willing to lend a helping hand, at least from time to time if not all the time.

I guess the REAL question is:-  Can we do anything about it nation wide?  If so what.  I am willing to help if I can.

Phil

There is a way.

Get rid of the dictators, who ignore the rules, ask fanciers to put forward that which would improve matters for them and all fanciers and let a majority individual vote decide any matter.


Introduce the advice of the Hall Report, how any organization can spend £10,000 on an INDEPENDANT investigation and the findings be totally dismissed by those involved is beyond belief and just shows the RPRA as run at the moment is NOT FIT FOR PURPOE.



What more evidence does one want?.


Regards.

MISTY wrote:

There is a way.

Get rid of the dictators, who ignore the rules, ask fanciers to put forward that which  would improve matters for them and  all fanciers and let a majority individual vote decide any matter.


Introduce the advice of the Hall Report, how any organization can spend £10,000 on an INDEPENDANT investigation and the findings be totally dismissed by those involved is beyond belief and just shows the RPRA as run at the moment is NOT FIT FOR PURPOE.



What more evidence does one want?.


Regards.

NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE! That just about sums up the RPRA up.

But, I am sorry Misty - you say do this and do that - get rid of this person and that person! But surely we (the normal working man in the street) doesn't have a cat in hell's chance of doing any of that.

I do not suffer from apathy - I am quite a 'get up and go' kind of a bloke. But I can't see how we can do any of what you said.

According to what we read some people have been trying for over 45 years to get things right, but where has it got them?

To me it is a bit like having to pay taxes - you don't want to, but you must. There are so many things in this world that are 'legal cons'. It's like:- you sign up to a company to provide you with internet - you HAVE to sign up for a year or sometimes two years. Then part way through your contract, they put the price up - another legal con.

I hate that kind of thing. As you guys will know, we lived in frogland for 15+ years, over there there are LOTS of those kind of things that go on all the time. Some call it 'Stealth Taxes'.

Sorry, getting off subject a bit - shouldn't do that.

Phil

Yes find a system that suits you... Hopefully one that the birds will take to and like.
Also I believe Birds that you like the look of.

Most importantly is stay as close to nature as possible. We have maglined our birds natural elements and discarded many musts for the sake of 'Myths' , listening to not so good fancier whom like you may, listen to those with an agenda of money.
Incest breeding nonsense.

Had, well have a friend that after a couple of good results put it down to 'Thistles' and their natural goodness. Boiled in water - yes may well do them so good... But to be dried out and crushed and hung on hooks via the perches!

I once stated that I found, like the rabbits that eating their droppings was of a vast benefit!
Yes one says, 'It must be the salt content in it'!
Both were tried apparently... and we were asked 'How do you get them to take it'?

Another, may well be tried and proven, I don't know, but mate tried this and say the same 'They won't touch it'/
What was it? Gain, and feed for greyhounds.
Sheep fat is lightly poured when hot on to their' feed!


Now for starter everything a pigeon needz is found in their natural feeding. Oli, starch. fat. Protien etc. etc.

What the bird doesn't know is what the fancier has in store for it in the coming weeks.

But! once a cup is brimful, you can't add to it. - Yes mables in a jar till full. But you can add grit. Full? Well you could add sand. Now full! No! you could add watyer. and so on. BUT in the intestines one must remember that it take energy etc. to desolve and placed to parts needed... is enough.
Boxers just after the war to early 50's etc. often fought for little money and a 'Big beef Steak'!
Cor to feed the family. they trained on protein! Now 56% of that protein was use eating. 28% to break it down. 15% to put into the system etc. etc. Better of with a slice of chicken and some veg etc.
Well use Brewers yeast them. Quickly into the system and soon broken down. Yeah right. But it is also an yeast! like canker that our good ladies sometime or other might have suffered from. there are 33 or so different cankers. BUT ALL quickly become immune to any remedy to clear. you MUST change the remedy after using twice, 3 times tops! But we hear the tripe that one has alway used it ... to good effect. Rubbish. You are feeding it. Then it becomes a very deep rooted curse. Gosh the medicence box comes out and one treats for willy nilly to no effect. Even vet bill will DON'T shift it, and anything but every thing from Cocci to Samonell etc. is blamed. Indeed very few vets anything at all regards pigeons. avian vet slightly more. Only one cure. A full strength Baytril with a full strength Ron canker cure mixed and given for 5 - 7 times together.

Bird is listless. A. a toxin... too much protien - like whey or Brewers yeast. Only cure is rest! Idiots say it's lazy, it need a chuck, exercise etc. etc. They send it up the road, or give it one more chance and send it to the coming race. and if it don'[t make … we've lost nothing! idiots of the highest core! Or if not, take the two widest feathers from the tail and pull tem out. How it works one don't know. But it works.


The 5 plus 2 C's are easy. Contenment, condition, control... consistancy ... that's four.

Sorry blueskylofts,

That is the attitude that has landed us in the present position.

If enough grass root fancier were interested enough in attending meetings etc; and see the manner in which the RPRA is run they COULD change matters.


There is nothing stopping any club putting a vote of no confidence in the Council to the General Manager, he would be obliged to by pass any objection of those on the Council and call such vote by individual voting.

Regards.

The other one Daz is luck.

Always said stray from nature at your peril you cannot change what nature puts into a pigeon but you can ruin it.


Regards.

MISTY wrote:

Sorry blueskylofts,

That is the attitude that has landed us in the present position.

If enough grass root fancier were interested enough in attending meetings etc; and see the manner in which the RPRA  is run they COULD change matters.


There is nothing stopping any club putting a vote of no confidence in the Council to the General  Manager, he would be obliged to by pass any objection of those on the Council and call such vote by individual voting.

Regards.
 

Perhaps the great majority do not want change?

Change needs to happen other wise the sport we love is gone , how we change it is down to us , how many of us have sat in the club house and said we need to do This or that, the regions are not working the rpra not interested , small clubs need to almagamate feds need to almalgamate liberations going to the same area be covoyed by one transport company and be liberated altogether saving on cost but when it comes down to the membership is against for one reason or another in other words the want to see changes as long as it dont effect themgood eh
Ken

If the majority do not want changes, which I would dispute, and none take place, there will be no sport worth calling a sport within a very short time in our country.

Regards.

Misty - it isn't that I have got a bad attitude, or that I am being complacent, or suffer from apathy, I am just trying to think realistically.

You also say 'If enough grass root fancier were interested enough in attending meetings etc; and see the manner in which the RPRA is run they COULD change matters.' That is a BIG if.

Firstly, do we have enough grass roots fanciers who are interested enough to want to change things?

Secondly, do you think even a few people have got the nuts to stand up and say we don't have any confidence in such and such?

What changes would you like to see? And realistically how would you go about getting these changes? What specifically do you not like? You say that the people at the RPRA are incompetent etc etc, but if what you say is true, how do we get them ousted?

You say have a vote of no confidence, but again I put it to you, who has got the guts to stand up and tell the people at the RPRA that they are useless and they must go? And, if they go, who is going to replace them?

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that everything is hunky dory, because it isn't. I don't know enough about what the RPRA do and don't do to make a sensible comment, but I do know that I am not happy with the way that our sport is governed. And that is down to the RPRA.

What I do know about is club level, Fed level and Combine level. I think one of the clubs that we belong to nearly folded this year because there were hardly enough people who agreed on any particular point. What they have actually come up with I think is absolutely ridiculous.
They are going to send old birds in one direction, and then young birds in a completely different direction. The direction the young birds are going to go in is not going to serve them well if, as young birds, they are going to be sent over to France with the National, BBC, BICC, CSC etc, and will do them no good at all as yearlings, if again they are going to go across the water.

Now I expect there will be those who say something like 'sending the birds in two different directions can only do them good'. I think it is in Australia (and maybe Canada) where every year, they choose a different direction for the birds to race. That's fair enough if all the birds go in a particular direction. But not basically starting off with the birds going west and then expect them immediately to go east. It just seems crazy to me.

That's it now, I am going to bed!

Phil

blueskylofts wrote:

Misty - it isn't that I have got a bad attitude, or that I am being complacent, or suffer from apathy, I am just trying to think realistically.

You also say 'If enough grass root fancier were interested enough in attending meetings etc; and see the manner in which the RPRA is run they COULD change matters.'  That is a BIG if.

Firstly, do we have enough grass roots fanciers who are interested enough to want to change things?  

Secondly, do you think even a few people have got the nuts to stand up and say we don't have any confidence in such and such?

What changes would you like to see?  And realistically how would you go about getting these changes?  What specifically do you not like?  You say that the people at the RPRA are incompetent etc etc,  but if what you say is true, how do we get them ousted?

You say have a vote of no confidence, but again I put it to you, who has got the guts to stand up and tell the people at the RPRA that they are useless and they must go?  And, if they go, who is going to replace them?

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that everything is hunky dory, because it isn't.  I don't know enough about what the RPRA do and don't do to make a sensible comment, but I do know that I am not happy with the way that our sport is governed.  And that is down to the RPRA.

What I do know about is club level, Fed level and Combine level.  I think one of the clubs that we belong to nearly folded this year because there were hardly enough people who agreed on any particular point.  What they have actually come up with I think is absolutely ridiculous.
They are going to send old birds in one direction, and then young birds in a completely different direction.  The direction the young birds are going to go in is not going to serve them well if, as young birds, they are going to be sent over to France with the National, BBC, BICC, CSC etc, and will do them no good at all as yearlings, if again they are going to go across the water.

Now I expect there will be those who say something like 'sending the birds in two different directions can only do them good'.  I think it is in Australia (and maybe Canada) where every year, they choose a different direction for the birds to race.  That's fair enough if all the birds go in a particular direction.  But not basically starting off with the birds going west and then expect them immediately to go east.  It just seems crazy to me.

That's it now, I am going to bed!

Phil

To take you up on your last point above Misty in regards to changing a pigeons normal line issue/factor. Maybe you worry too much type of thing maybe. Last year here my Fed changed the 5/600 mile race points at the last minute "Something I thought was wrong" in fact I'm I put it down as a total c**k up, by a bunch of clowns as such . Any way for their own reasons they went 500 odd miles west off the normal line we had been flying for the whole year here for the birds & both races in the end had good returns, fortunately. Will end thou in saying, one local Fed stuck to their guns here & basically liberated their birds where ours should have liberated & also had a good race as such. But then        clown types, do clown type things, maybe at times .

blueskylofts,

If the Hall Report does not grasp your understanding of what needs doing to bring the sport up to date in the management of the sports affairs which is paramount to it,s future then nothing will.

The report from an independent body just dismissed by the Old Brigade should indicate to even the most dim that matters need addressing.


There were propositions in the last AGM of the RPRA that would have been a start but you have the Old Brigade and their lackies ( who can be found in the most unexpected places) making sure they are not passed using their long established methods.

The fact is if changes ARE NOT MADE there will be no sport worth calling a sport within a very short time and being dispondent and dismisdive of the truth helps no one.




Regards.

You say have a vote of no confidence, but again I put it to you, who has got the guts to stand up and tell the people at the RPRA that they are useless and they must go? And, if they go, who is going to replace them? ME for a fact! Many more too.... but other members boo- hoo them till they give up the ghost.

Them when they get on committees and try... they eventually come off because the 'Old Boys' brigade make it impossible feathering their own nests and positions.

MISTY wrote:

blueskylofts,

                If the Hall Report does not grasp your understanding of what needs doing to bring the sport up to date in the management of the sports affairs which is paramount to it,s future then nothing will.

                The report from an independent body just dismissed by the Old Brigade should indicate to even the most dim that matters need addressing.


                There were propositions in the last AGM of the RPRA that would have been a start but you have the Old Brigade and their lackies ( who can be found in the most unexpected places) making sure they are not passed using their long established methods.

               The fact is if changes ARE NOT MADE there will be no sport worth calling a sport within a very short time and being dispondent and dismisdive of the truth helps no one.

Regards.

I have never heard of the Hall Report - what is it and how can I read it.

Thanks

Phil

Just put RPRA HALL REPORT on your computer and you can find both the report and many opinions on the matter.

Regards.