Malcolms Place

hi niel, hope you are ok....just have to go get a yb in that didnt come in earlier, and do my chores so i can come on here later....

DAVID wrote:

hi Malcolm, just reminded me when reading about pulling feathers.....one of our members Amanda(dark chequer) was asking if anyone knew about the light system as she had watched a dvd on the subject, it said that the flights and tail feathers are pulled for some reason to help in performance, amanda and all of us didnt like the sound of it and said we wouldnt practice such methods. do you know anything about it and is it along similar lines to what you have researched?
thanks malcolm
david.

Hi Dave & Amanda.
I find the subject of pulling flights in order to start the moult typical of what the Americans do. The main man behind all this is a man called Bob Rowland who has come up with an idea called 'Power moulting' which entails the pulling of flights in a certain order to get birds through the moult.
However, when I challenged this practice last winter it was not the pulling of the flights that caused me to research the practice, it was a statement made by the American partner of M&D Evans.
This guy stated that he had cut the flights down in order to pull them a couple of weeks later. For the life of me I could not imagine what the cutting of the flights would achieve or the reason for it, indeed it seemed such a silly idea that I felt that I had to challenge the practice.
I put out a general posting on another chat forum regarding this and I was not suprised to find that it was not a practice that was carried out over here, however, I did have replies from America, some of which questioned my sanity that I could not see the sense in this practice.
The main practioner of this and probably the guy who made it popular in America said the reason they cut the flights was to ' let out all the blood and dry them out for 'pulling' of course this had me falling about laughing as anyone who has been around anything featherd must know that once the feather is fully grown it is dead be it a flight or body feather. For some reason this guy had got many of the American fancy into believing that feathers were living things and were nourished by blood after they were fully grown!
Now anyone who has looked at a feather will see that the end of the quill is sealed off and the inside is lined/packed with a flakey material called Keritin which is what your finger nails and hair are made of. We all know that you can cut your nails and hair but they dont bleed because they are dead. I can hear someone say, "Ah but they grow so they must be nourished" not so my friend, the root/folicle produces growth but the growth that you see is dead when it is long enough to be visable.
This was not what the Americans wanted to hear and my logic was questioned together with quite a few sarcastic remarks thrown my way that I had fallen of another planet. Understand that I was not questioning the logic in pulling of the flights ( I have my opinions on that) but the reason that they thought that cutting a flight served any purpose.
My research involved communication with the Vetrianary College in London to whom I remain grateful for their assstance, The Soc . of Ornithologists . and the Wild life Department of Texas who all agreed that once a feather is fully grown it is DEAD and receives no further sustainance whatsoever.
If you think about it, it is plain to see that whilst a feather is growing it is full of blood and haven't we all seen such a feather? however, once the follicle seals of the feather where it grows in the wing, the soft state of quill containing blood hardens off and the quill becomes hollow, strong and most of all light and flexible. If the feather were to remain being fed from the blood stream imagine what would happen if that flight broke! the result would be that the bird would bleed until the blood clotted and this would take a long time if the bird was flying.
My research into the effect of actually pulling a flight showed that this practice caused great pain to the bird. The Vet. college said that were a member of the public to take a pet bird to a vet and require its damaged flights withdrawing that vet would almost certainly render the bird unconcious (spl) before pulling the remainder of the flights.
Anyway, as a result of my findings I was able to get a grudging admission that perhaps the cutting was not serving any purpose after all, but it would be difficult to convince the general American and Asian fancy that it was a practice that was not proven to have been beneficial to the practice of racing pigeon husbandry.
Chanco.
Ps. This raises the question how often have you heard that feeding oily seeds makes the birds feel silky and smooth? You can feed as much as you like and you will not , ONCE THE FEATHER IS GROWN make any difference to its condition. If the bird is of a very soft feathered type this is due to its parentage and breeding from a soft feathered line as can be seen in almost every RED coloured family.
If anyone one could do me a copy of the Light System CD I would be grateful as my only understanding of it is that Lenthening the light causes the THROWING OF FLIGHTS- SHORTENING OF THE LIGHT (OR DARKNESS) CAUSES THE BODY TO MOULT>

Hi All, I will get round to explaining my method of Training at Dusk and motivation next.
Chanco.

hi malcolm, thank you for the article re cutting and pulling flights.....i found it very interesting and informative, one thing i cant understand about it is how pulling flights will start the moult?, when ybs are put on the darkness system it is simulating winter hours so therefor making them moult....but like i say, i cant see how pulling flights will do this. also when you think, it must hurt the bird when pulling flights out....its barbaric.

thanks again malcolm.

david i agree not a fan of pulling flights dark system i believe will be just as effective

thats it ian, why pull flights when the amount of daylight and darkness can be controlled?

i,ll stick to the dickie dark

i remember amanda talking about the light system so some must practice it....dont really know much about it apart from when amanda said about pulling flights.

As anybody any thoughts on my views regarding the 'darkness' system and its' effect on orientation i/e by creating an artificial dawn?

Hi All,
Training Obs and YBs at dusk is a subject which over the years I have discussed and passed on to many fanciers at home and abroad. It is, in my opinion, probably the most effective introduction as to what training is all about. For the YBs I think it is essential that they undergo this training if only for the 'Shock' value that they will encounter.
Up to now, YB training in particular, as been rather cosy! Have a nice little 20 mile spin, take your time if you wish there is no hurry to get home because he will feed us when we arrive and look upon us as his little champions! Well, my little champions this is where it all stops and things will be different from now on.
Firstly, there are good reasons why I favour training so late in the day.
Most other fanciers have trained earlier during the day so you don't encounter other batches of birds going in the opposite direction to carry yours off.
Secondly, for those of you who are troubled with Peregrins and hawks you will find that most birds of prey are, by this time, settled down for the night and are not hunting.
Thirdly, your birds are well aware that it is time they were settling down to roost for the night and the motivation to get home is quite strong.
And finally, they will be looking forward to being fed and watered. There are other reasons but that is enough to be concerned with at this time.
I always think it best to start training at dusk when your Yb are well schooled in normal training and have been to about 20-25 miles several times. Your birds will have got themselves into a nice comfortable little routine of training, fly home and get fed. As I said before this will now change.
The first Dusk Flight is the most difficult one to calculate, as you want them arriving home just as the street lights are due to come on. Already I can hear those of you who are whincing at the thought of your poor little darlings being out in the dark!!
So, I want to make my first Dusk training toss at 20 miles. Now depending on the weather and wind I would calculate that if they are beating me home each day then they must be flying at around 50 mph, thats very near to about a mile per minute so on this first trip I am only going to allow them 25 mins to get home. Chances are that if they play about ( I forgot to say that they will have had no loft flying this day) they are going to get caught out and it could be that they will night out! ..............Oh, I can imagine your thoughts at this moment...........poor birds stuck on a roof somewhere!
However, let us bear in mind that they will probably be very near to home, perhaps only a couple of miles and if the weather is decent then it will do them no physical harm at all, I will promise you that. However, you can bet that those that do night out will be sat on the loft first light in the morning!
The following night we do exactly the same only we cut the time down to about 20 mins ( you may wish to leave it at 25 mins)which means that they know where they are and if they don't want the same experience as the night before then they will make every effort to keep coming even though the light is going fast.
It does not take long for them to realise that playing around does not pay! and I have had them come home when you could barely see them against the sky. A friend and I trained our birds together in this fashion and it is true to say that we could not lose pigeons that had been trained in this way, couple this with all the other adverse weather conditions that I had put them through over the weeks and I had every faith that whatever distractions they could encounter they would always home if possible.
This training will always put channel pigeons in good stead and I have had them fly into the night well into the hours of darkness.
The only limitations your young birds have is the one's that you put on them and sometimes we do not give them credit enough.
My main aim is to build confidence in them, if they can fly at dusk, when its' raining, when its' blowing a gale, when its' misty and dull, when its cold and when the wind is east ( never bothered me that one because I trained in it) then you will have pigeons that will come in all conditions for you and they will not go down because the light is fading a little.
Once you have confidence in the fact that they will come at dusk you can switch them back to daylight training knowing that you have given them confidence that will put them in good stead for the coming years.
Chanco.
Perhaps we should touch ontraining from diferent compass points next time.

Please bear in mind that these are only my opinons and should yours differ then I have every respect for them.

This is fantastic reading Chanco, to the point and something which i would consider doing

Chanco wrote:

As anybody any thoughts on my views regarding the 'darkness' system and its' effect on orientation i/e by creating an artificial dawn?

hi malcolm, very interesting reading your thoughts on darkness system, one thing springs to mind is that when you say that ybs get to know the position of the sun rising and that when they are weaned it is confusing....what if we put the parents when sitting and then feeding onto the same hours of day and night that we intend to use when the ybs are seperated into their own darkness section. would this then be natural to them?

thanks malcolm.

Don Webb wrote:

This is fantastic reading Chanco, to the point and something which i would consider doing

i agree don, fantastic and very informative reading.....

Thanks david

was wondering, the darkness system is based on the hours of dawn and dusk according to the winter hours, why does this make the birds moult ? natural ybs are moulting now during summer so why simulate winter hours?

i know the whole point is the force them through the moult as fast as possible...but is it the amount of dark and light that does this and not what is acually stated as winter hours?

DAVID wrote:

was wondering, the darkness system is based on the hours of dawn and dusk according to the winter hours, why does this make the birds moult ? natural ybs are moulting now during summer so why simulate winter hours?

i know the whole point is the force them through the moult as fast as possible...but is it the amount of dark and light that does this and not what is acually stated as winter hours?

With the onset of the shorter days and lack of light the birds have an inbuilt need to moult out for the winter. To put it simply, by putting them on darkness you are kidding them into thinking it is coming round to winter and therefore the inbuilt moulting cycle kicks in. Once you have got them through the body moult and back onto light their body tells them there is no need to start throwing flights as it is still summer i/e long daylight hours.

To answer your other question about YBs seeing sunrise.
It does not matter if you transfer the OB s with them. From a very early age there brain picks up sun positions relative to the time of day and that becomes inbuilt into their system. Even though the days are getting shorter and the sun rises later they adjust their body clock to compensate for this and in the final analysis this body clock and daylight hours dictates when and how the moult will take place because it is all tied into the same brain mechanism. In my humble opinion we are playing around with things that we think we understand but there are other factors which I am sure tip the balance the other way.
If you keep them on 16 hours- 20 hours of light then all you are doing is kidding them into thinking it is mid summer and there is no need to break into the flight moult. Hope this answers your question.
Chanco.

hi malcolm, so if the dark birds were bred very early and go straight on to the dark system would they moult the flights as well as just the body?

hi malcolm, when you say that it is very confusing for birds to be first put on to the dark and then when they are took of....how do you think this confusion hampers them? by homing instinct or racing ability?
thanks malcolm.

DAVID wrote:

hi malcolm, so if the dark birds were bred very early and go straight on to the dark system would they moult the flights as well as just the body?

No Dave,
They should have finished the body moult long (then back onto normal light) before the desire to start casting flights.

I am convinced that the chopping and changing with light and dark effects the birds orientation which in turn effects racing/homing ability.
Such losses were almost unknown prior to the Darkness system becoming popular......................an example of trying to get one over on the next man and causing unexpected problems by doing so!

My Ybs are going to 30 miles tomorrow and I'm not too bothered about the weather, they could walk 30 miles! After a few tosses at 30 miles I will be going onto Dusk training for a week or so, then back onto normal before racing commences.

My Ybs are skipping through the (secodaries)flight moult too quick and I think some will be less competitive because of it. However, all being well they will all have at least 4-5 races.
Chanco.

Chanco wrote:

Hi All,
Training Obs and YBs at dusk is a subject which over the years I have discussed and passed on to many fanciers at home and abroad. It is, in my opinion, probably the most effective introduction as to what training is all about. For the YBs I think it is essential that they undergo this training if only for the 'Shock' value that they will encounter.
Up to now, YB training in particular, as been rather cosy! Have a nice little 20 mile spin, take your time if you wish there is no hurry to get home because he will feed us when we arrive and look upon us as his little champions! Well, my little champions this is where it all stops and things will be different from now on.
Firstly, there are good reasons why I favour training so late in the day.
Most other fanciers have trained earlier during the day so you don't encounter other batches of birds going in the opposite direction to carry yours off.
Secondly, for those of you who are troubled with Peregrins and hawks you will find that most birds of prey are, by this time, settled down for the night and are not hunting.
Thirdly, your birds are well aware that it is time they were settling down to roost for the night and the motivation to get home is quite strong.
And finally, they will be looking forward to being fed and watered. There are other reasons but that is enough to be concerned with at this time.
I always think it best to start training at dusk when your Yb are well schooled in normal training and have been to about 20-25 miles several times. Your birds will have got themselves into a nice comfortable little routine of training, fly home and get fed. As I said before this will now change.
The first Dusk Flight is the most difficult one to calculate, as you want them arriving home just as the street lights are due to come on. Already I can hear those of you who are whincing at the thought of your poor little darlings being out in the dark!!
So, I want to make my first Dusk training toss at 20 miles. Now depending on the weather and wind I would calculate that if they are beating me home each day then they must be flying at around 50 mph, thats very near to about a mile per minute so on this first trip I am only going to allow them 25 mins to get home. Chances are that if they play about ( I forgot to say that they will have had no loft flying this day) they are going to get caught out and it could be that they will night out! ..............Oh, I can imagine your thoughts at this moment...........poor birds stuck on a roof somewhere!
However, let us bear in mind that they will probably be very near to home, perhaps only a couple of miles and if the weather is decent then it will do them no physical harm at all, I will promise you that. However, you can bet that those that do night out will be sat on the loft first light in the morning!
The following night we do exactly the same only we cut the time down to about 20 mins ( you may wish to leave it at 25 mins)which means that they know where they are and if they don't want the same experience as the night before then they will make every effort to keep coming even though the light is going fast.
It does not take long for them to realise that playing around does not pay! and I have had them come home when you could barely see them against the sky. A friend and I trained our birds together in this fashion and it is true to say that we could not lose pigeons that had been trained in this way, couple this with all the other adverse weather conditions that I had put them through over the weeks and I had every faith that whatever distractions they could encounter they would always home if possible.
This training will always put channel pigeons in good stead and I have had them fly into the night well into the hours of darkness.
The only limitations your young birds have is the one's that you put on them and sometimes we do not give them credit enough.
My main aim is to build confidence in them, if they can fly at dusk, when its' raining, when its' blowing a gale, when its' misty and dull, when its cold and when the wind is east ( never bothered me that one because I trained in it) then you will have pigeons that will come in all conditions for you and they will not go down because the light is fading a little.
Once you have confidence in the fact that they will come at dusk you can switch them back to daylight training knowing that you have given them confidence that will put them in good stead for the coming years.
Chanco.
Perhaps we should touch ontraining from diferent compass points next time.

Please bear in mind that these are only my opinons and should yours differ then I have every respect for them.

Thanx Chanco, never thought about training that way, makes perfect sense, thanx a lot.

malcolm i race pigeons and have been for about 8 years now ever since i started i have been on the dark with youngsters , you say that the darkness system you think affects the orientation of the birds hence losses , however over the young bird season i dont loose a lot of birds as youngsters or as yearlings and so on so i myself dont find this as being true

very interesting chanco really enjoyed readsing your view by the way where dont you fly from

hi malcolm, there is a fancier in the next street to me and ive noticed he always lets his birds out late evening and they are still flying around when it is nearly dark...i have always suspected he does this to get them so they will keep on flying as long as possible when racing from the channel as they are well used to flying in limited day light. so with what you have said i am now sure this is why he does it.....

yes david i think your right

hi ian, remember we have spoke about this before havnt we....? interesting reading tho dont you think?